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Naturalistic snake cage...a little long

ridge Nov 12, 2004 10:00 AM

I am interested in making a couple natural snake cages for each of my kingsnakes. I primarily keep and breed amphibians and have built many varieties of vivariums including a large desert style for a guy with pygmy rattlers. Anyway, I realize that most people go with a sterile or basic setup to ease cleaning and access to the snakes. You see an occasional natural design in a magazine or at the zoo but not that often otherwise.

I am still in the design stage but this most likely will be fully custom - wood (poplar) and plexi with hinged folding style doors for easy access, inset water dish, rocky forest style background, moderatly planted floor.

My questions are:
1. Has anyone used the standard techniques that dart froggers use to create a natural background and what were the cons? - such as with spray foam or quickrete and foam?

2. I realize that many snakes are burrowers but has anyone used a planted vivarium for their snakes? and if so, what substate did you use?

3. What are the smallest type of heating/light element that I will be able to find?

Thanks in advance for any input, advice, website referrals, or pics that anyone offers!

Replies (13)

chris_harper2 Nov 12, 2004 10:16 AM

>>1. Has anyone used the standard techniques that dart froggers use to create a natural background and what were the cons? - such as with spray foam or quickrete and foam?

Yes, I've used textured concrete coated with an expensive sealer.

It was heavy and difficult to clean. With the textured concrete the snakes could climb anywhere and deficate anywhere. But it was worth it.

>>2. I realize that many snakes are burrowers but has anyone used a planted vivarium for their snakes? and if so, what substate did you use?

I had better luck with lives plants in tropical or desert vivaria. So I used mulch and sand respectively. I never had luck with live plants in a cage for typical NA colubrids.

>>3. What are the smallest type of heating/light element that I will be able to find?

I don't know. There are a lot more choices today with smaller halogens, compact florescents, etc. There's even light rope which could be looped through several cages in small amounts.

I've also heard of using Xmas lights.
-----
Current snakes:

1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

ridge Nov 12, 2004 12:00 PM

Chris,

Thanks for the reply, I am suprised at how hard it has been to find anyone who uses naturistic enclosures for snakes. Snakes surely can't be any more delicate or prone to skin ailments than amphibians. Other than a snakes size and strength making them more destructive in a natural viv do you know why it isn't more popular with snakes to design natural environments for them?

I keep dart frogs that I am selling in sterilite containers for convienance but all the animals that I actually keep or breed are in natural environments.

As far as weight goes, using a foam background, with a thin layer of quickrete and sealing it shouldn't make it heavy.

I am assembling the parts now so maybe I will have pics to post this weekend.

chris_harper2 Nov 12, 2004 12:10 PM

>>Thanks for the reply, I am suprised at how hard it has been to find anyone who uses naturistic enclosures for snakes.

To be fair, I'm not using them anymore. I'd like to go back to something similar but I think I'll avoid the rockwork. Instead I'll keep all permanent surfaces easy to clean and then provide removable structure (plants, logs, etc.).

>>Other than a snakes size and strength making them more destructive in a natural viv do you know why it isn't more popular with snakes to design natural environments for them?

Snakes tend to be kept in cages with a smaller volume relative to body weight. This means more feces/urates to clean on a per-area basis. Also, dart frogs do well in semi-aquatic environents where there is a slight amout of microbrial filtration and breakdown of waste material. Very few snakes do well in such an environement.

>>As far as weight goes, using a foam background, with a thin layer of quickrete and sealing it shouldn't make it heavy.

I agree. Using foam was not a viable option to me at the time (long story).

I look forward to your pictures and long term experiences.
-----
Current snakes:

1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

NWFLHerper Nov 12, 2004 04:42 PM

Here are some of the obstacles I have come up against when I have considered this king of setup in the past. For me the size of the cage became the biggest problem. That became an issue when I figured out how big the plants would have to be so they would not be trampled by the weight of the snake. This was for Pantherophis, Lampropeltis, and Pituophis. A full grown Ratsnake, Corn, Cal King, or Pine Snake, would reek havoc on most small-medium houseplants. So I need larger plants, but in order to support the root systems of those plants, I figures I would need a minimum of 12-18 inches of soil. Another alternative I considered was to just leave them in the pots and set them into holes in the floor. Leaving them in the pots and just setting them in the cage was never recall an option I considered because it didn't look like a naturalistic setup, just some potted plants in a cage. I guess you could also build some sort of contoured floor to you cage and have holes in the foam to set the plants into as well, but that was more than I was willing to take on. I think it would work well for smaller snakes such as my Scarlet Kings, but with them being such burrowers, I don't know how I would ensure they each were eating. Currently I fish them out of their substrate and put them into a small Tupperware and feed f/t pinks. I don't like the idea of leaving a dead pink in the cage and hope my snakes come up for a meal. Seems like it has the potential to waste a lot of food. I think it would work well for some of the small Tree Boas or small terrestrial snakes, but for med-large colubrids or boids, it doesn't seem very practical. For me, fake plants are the way to go. I have a naturalistic desert viv with live plants set up for a sideblotch Lizard and some Banded Geckos. That works well, but they aren't very big or destructive.

Lia Nov 13, 2004 06:04 PM

I noticed you have a scarlet kingsnake. I am thinking of getting one do you see it much or mostly a big hider?
I keep 3 ringneck snakes in a 20 gallon long tank that I do see
here and there when they come out searching for earthworms but I have a feeling a scarlet is a major hider.
thanks.
Lia

NWFLHerper Nov 13, 2004 07:55 PM

I like my SKs a lot, but I definitely don't see them much at all. One spends its time under a piece of bark I have sitting on top of the substrate, but the other one spends all the time buried at the bottom of the cage. I assume they must come out, but I have never witnessed it and I've had them for about 9 months. the only time I see them is when I feed them. Beautiful snakes, but definitely not a display snake.

Lia Nov 14, 2004 10:28 AM

Okay thanks. Yes they are great looking snakes. I might look into another type now. It would be nice to not allways look at a tank with no snake heeeheee.
I wanted to make another display tank I looked into male sand boa-shovelnose snake and scarlet king but guess all hiders.
I might just opt for a bigger tank than the 20 gallon long and look into a snake that I actually see.
Though most of the milks and kings (my favorites) I imagine love to hide to.
Thanks.
Lia

paul kemes Nov 12, 2004 02:06 PM

I have IJCP's in this one so I use cypress mulch. The only thing I find with naturalistic setups for snakes is it is better to make the cage bigger than you normally would for a sterile setup. Like in this setup, the plants hold up well because for the snake to get from here to there, so to speak, it doesn't have to trample the plants to get there.

Hope this helps, feel free to ask more questions.
Paul

paul kemes Nov 12, 2004 02:09 PM

p

Malays Nov 12, 2004 06:06 PM

Wow great looking what type snake are you putting in it?
Malays

Matt Campbell Nov 13, 2004 11:23 AM

>Thanks for the reply, I am suprised at how hard it has been to find anyone who uses naturistic enclosures for snakes. Snakes surely can't be any more delicate or prone to skin ailments than amphibians. Other than a snakes size and strength making them more destructive in a natural viv do you know why it isn't more popular with snakes to design natural environments for them?

With the exception of skin blisters from prolonged exposure to excessively humid environments, snakes are no more delicate than any other species when it comes to hardiness in naturalistic vivaria. In fact, an article in 'Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles' Ed. by Warwick, Frye, and Murphy explains how the 'dirty-ness' [my term], of natural environments actually has the effect of helping bolster the immune system of captive reptiles. The simple fact of the matter is the culture of herp-keeping in the U.S. has long been one of keeping animals in the simplest most easily cleaned setups, and that means plastic boxes, newspaper, etc. When it comes to naturalistic design and the associated benefits, we're way behind our european counterparts.

>1. Has anyone used the standard techniques that dart froggers use to create a natural background and what were the cons? - such as with spray foam or quickrete and foam?

Search the archives for pros and cons of various foams for making rockwork and the various techniques. You might also do a search for 'foam rockwork in fresh and saltwater aquaria' - I've done that in the past and turned up some interesting techniques. I think the easiest method is to use rigid foam insulating sheets, cut them up and hot glue them together to make your rock base, then cover them with something like non-sanded tile grout or perhaps modeling paste like you'd find at an art supply store. Both methods tend to make a heavier product but still more durable than simply trying to paint your foam rockwork. There's not much that looks worse than making some fake rocks and then having an animal break off a piece exposing nice pink foam underneath.

>2. I realize that many snakes are burrowers but has anyone used a planted vivarium for their snakes? and if so, what substate did you use?

I've tried this with many snakes and it simply doesn't work. You either need to have a very deep substrate, which translates into a huge cage, or you need to bury pots, which is nearly impossible with the larger plants. A good alternative [one that I've used at the zoo when I've revamped an exhibit], is to use clumps of larger plants at the back of the exhibit, grouping them together and then building up your substrate around the pots so that it slopes downwards towards the front of the cage. This helps conceal your pots and also has the effect of providing depth to the scene. Areas between pots should be filled with pieces of rock or sheet foam to prevent snakes burrowing into those crevices.

>3. What are the smallest type of heating/light element that I will be able to find?

Depending on what you want, the best small lights right now are the compact fluorescents that have the twisted bulbs. Many will put out 60 watts or more light with little more than 14 watts or so of power. They're great for providing light without taking up much space but so far your choices are limited to a couple brands of UV bulbs which tend to have an unnatural bluish cast, or the regular non-herp bulbs which are either warm white or cool white, both of which look unnatural above a vivarium in that they don't give a proper color spectrum. Additionally, to further complicate matters, if you're going to have live plants, you'll need much higher intesity lighting to ensure they grow properly or you'll need to have spare plants of the same type to swap out when your vivarium plants begin to die off or go downhill. Providing higher light intensity with a proper color spectrum is best acheived by using multiple 2, 3, or 4 foot fixtures using 2 bulbs ea. and having full-spectrum [full color spectrum, not UV full spectrum] to provide your lighting. Finally, there are numerous choices in heating from radiant heat panels to heat cables, and heat emitters. One of the most efficient heaters I've seen so far and am currently testing, is the Mega Heat emitter sold by www.reptileuv.com or www.uvheat.com, both sites sell it for $25 and it allegedly puts out upwards of 160 watts of heat for only 60 actual watts of power. You definetely need to use this with a thermostat.

Hope all this gives you some ideas. If you can find the book I mentioned at a local library or university library, it's an excellent read as far as the naturalistic vs. sterile environment article goes.
-----
Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

ridge Nov 13, 2004 01:05 PM

Thanks all, very helpful replies, I am taking some construction photos as I go along so if I have some luck and everything comes out as I have it planned then I can share the results. If anybody has any further tips or tricks let me know. Ridge

Lia Nov 13, 2004 05:48 PM

I keep live plants but ONLY in pots. If you use clay pots they look nice a rustic look but if you prefer hide behind wood,rocks or bury them.
To use them directly in the substrate in long run is a pain the substrate will become damp,wet which you dont want and its just easier to remove the pots to clean waste from the plants.
I keep ringnecks like this and it works great. I use overhead light incandescent light (75 watt ge plant bulb)for the plants which is my heat to and at night if needed turn on a 40 watt ceramic heat emitter.
The tank is a 20 gallon long. The look is great but your snakes are HUGE compared to mine but it will work just as well if you dont plant the plants directly in the substrate.
I water the plants directly in the tank(I sealed the bottom holes in the pots with fishtank glue and plastic sheet)You have to really avoid damp substrate.
I am soon going to get a scarlet king and will set up tank same way.
Lia

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