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For Odatriad, did you miss this below

FR Nov 16, 2004 12:16 PM

If you were purposely ignoring this, then please do so again.

From the post below, you have a view on photo-period and terms like nocturnal, I was hoping we could have some conversation on this subject. Please understand, its not about right or wrong, its about preception.

I have lots more to say about the subject, but it would be better if you responded and led me to more conversation on this very important subject.

Heres my post from below;


Posted by: FR at Sun Nov 14 11:15:16 2004

First let me say, this is only for your consideration. Its not meant as something you should take as gospel. Hopefully this can create useful conversation.

About the terms, nocturnal, diurnal, crespuscular). I believe these terms are often misused in trying to understand reptiles or animals in general. People seem to apply it as a adjective to a animal or species. For instance, this animal or species is, nocturnal, like bats for instance. While we all understand, bats are nocturnal, that is, they come out at night. What happens if they come "out" in the day? Are they no longer nocturnal?

To understand bats, how does nocturnal discribe what bats are doing in caves and other such places. If you have ever been in bat caves, they spend a great deal of time flying around, interacting with eachother and simple general squabbling. Other normal life events, besides sleeping. I bring this up, because it seems bats, hunt outside at night and breed, socialize(fight/squabble/nurse, etc) inside. While inside, they also sleep. But sleeping is only a certain percentage of the time spend inside. So in reality, bats may not be nocturnal, just some of their behaviors, like hunting for food.

I think its easier to understand bats, when you think of their behaviors as being nocturnal or diurnal.

To understand this even more, does each individual bat hunt the entire night? or sleep the entire day? or does each individual bat hunt until its secures its food? Then what does the bat do? just fly around all night, or return to its roost in the cave? Please remember, this is to allow you to think.

I hope that using a bat as an example will allow you to think. The reason I use a bat is, often people get all romatic about the actual subject and "get stupid" about the real subject.

The subject is monitors.

This analogy applys to monitors very well, they may not be neither nocturnal or diurnal. Instead, they encompass behaviors that include these descriptive terms.

You could say, varanids are predominately diurnal feeders, that would be accurate. Or they are predominately active(out) in the day(diurnal), in the spring and fall, but in summer when its very hot, they are often active(out) commonly at night(nocturnal). Please understand, the monitor is trying to accomplish tasks, and the external conditions(temps and humidity) dictate whether the monitor can do that, either in the day(diurnal) or at night(nocturnal).

Prey usage also dictates when varanids are actively hunting, and sometimes this includes prey thats encountered at night.

I hope you are starting to realize, that nocturnal and diurnal are adjectives for behavior and not the actual monitor.

The reason the monitor from the post below was moving at night, was not because the monitor "is" nocturnal or diurnal, it moved at night because, it was forced to by enviornmental conditions. The presence of people forced the monitor to employe normal natural behaviors and move(accomplish needed tasks) at night.

Now to photoperiod. Photoperiod is directly related to the above. The reason I say this is, unlike plants that have roots and are stuck in one place all the time. Monitors are not exposed to lite or dark in a set manner. They are exposed to lite for small periods of time. I will take a leap here and say, I never heard of any monitor that had proper temp and hunidity choices, stay in the lite(sun, bulb) the entire time it was up/on.

I believe, monitors, only use a very small portion of available daylite, the rest of the time, they are secure in dark places. Dark places are burrows, hollows, cracks, crevices, etc. Please consider, like a bat, monitors are not always sleeping in these hiding places, they are in these places the majority of their lifes, I wonder if theres more then sleep going on??? I think this has the possibility to explain why so little copulation and nesting is observed in nature. I mean, every single female does this(and as you have seen, alot), why is it not observed?

To change the subject a tiny bit, I suggest that monitors or animals in general do not understand the sun and its photo-period as we do. Or even as rooted plants do. They understand it as a tool to accomplish tasks. For instance, what do you imagine would happen, if you supplied your captives with lite(diurnal) and cold temperatures, alternated with heat and dark(nocturnal)? Do you think the captives will bask in the cold or come out at night when its hot? I am cheating, as I know the answer to this one, hahahahahahaha, you should try it.

So, keeping in mind, that monitors are not restricted(rooted like plants) to be exposed to the effects of the bright part of photoperiod, but may be more interested in the product of lite(heat to a point) then the lite itself. I often wondered why I commonly see more varanids, out and active on hot/warm cloudy days, then on cold bright days. I get the feeling, its not about lite. But then, what do I know? Thanks for your consideration.

Thanks and sorry to bother you, if you do not want to be bothered. FR

Replies (24)

odatriad Nov 16, 2004 05:00 PM

Hi Frank,

Yes, I understand what you are saying, and if keeping animals in the dark with heat or in the light works for you, so be it.. I choose to use a photoperiod, as the maximum amount of sunlight that they can possibly see per day will never be more than about 14(tropical species) hours, so I choose not to go above that.

I am also not disagreeing that monitors aren't active during the night, of course they are/can be; however, I think that they do other things, besides bask, due to the lack of the sun's energy. Yes, I know, some animals will choose to nestle themselves/warm themselves by laying next to, or in rocks and crevices, which can retain a good amount of heat through much of the night. I don't think that all monitors have access to a nightime heat source, or need hotter temps at night, as many forest dwellers do not have objects such as dark rocks that retain heat, and rely heavily on warm nighttime ambient temps.

While I do not offer my tree monitors basking spots at night, I make sure that there is still a variable temperature gradient, that they can choose to use/sleep/other at different heights/temps through the night.

I have tried in the past to offer basking spots with my animals at night, in the form of heat emitters and infrared bulbs. In my animals, it seemed that they all typically roosted/went to bed before the lights went out,as if they had a preprogrammed bedtime, and did not come out or awake to utilize basking sites at night. This is another reason why I do not offer them lights or a basking source 24/7, my animals did not use it. My animals have not shown any indications of being unhealthy otherwise, so I do not see a sense in changing my own husbandry...

Just my thoughts... Sorry I didn't respond to your last post, I didn't know it was aimed at me... you forgot the D, and I thought you were speaking about/towards members of the subgenus Odatria...

Cheers,

bob
-----
TheOdatriad

FR Nov 16, 2004 06:27 PM

Sorry Bob, but you didn't get it at all. Its not about how you keep them or how I keep them. Its about THEM, and what they are, period. Its about the use of those terms and understanding how they apply to monitors. Sorry for bothering you, FR

MikeT Nov 16, 2004 09:56 PM

I consider rudicollis as arboreal as any monitor. I find them out all the time at night, wether midnight or 3 in the morning. Usually they are basking in the infrared lights, others times just crashed out on some log or soaking in the tub. Sometimes cruising around, probably hunting (looking for me and my tongs). Not sure exactly how or if this relates to the topic, but just my observation.

Dragoon Nov 18, 2004 05:06 PM

Hello.
As a keeper of both rudicollis and becarri (which Odatriad keeps), they are both very different.
The rudis are occasionally active at night. Depends on what they are doing.
The becarri NEVER is. Ever. It retires about an hour before the sun goes down. And it sleeps. So I can sure understand Bob's point about offering stuff at night. Its pointless, they are dead to the world until morning.

Go ahead FR, fire. I know you kept tree monitors for a while.
Cheers
D.

FR Nov 19, 2004 02:03 PM

First, Blacktrees, spend the majority of their daytime lifes inside hollow limbs and trees, WHAT ARE THEY DOING IN THERE. If you put a hollow tree in your house, what would your monitors do? Also if this hollow tree had, all sorts of insects and geckos and rodents and birds, also living IN this tree. This hollow tree also came equiped with lots of temperature choices, you see, parts are exposed to the intense sun and parts are in the shade, parts are also underground and parts are not. Can you think that your blacktree may not even need to come out? You know, if its needs were met inside the tree? Think about it, then try it.

Behavior is the responce to an impulse, or sets of impulses. Your conditions are fairly constant. In nature, conditions are highly variable. From daytime highs to lows, to amounts of rain, including lack of. Their behavior is based on reacting to this, and more.

There are fluctuations of predator occurences, they change their behavior to deal with the above. You know about my pet lizard that presents herself to my activity. I offer a positive reward, what do you think she would do if I shot her with a rubberband everytime she came out??

All and all, you can set a basic set of rules that a givin species should follow, but its another question if they WILL follow them, specially with an arsenal of behaviors based on changing conditions. Which includes aging. Please consider these. FR

SamSweet Nov 16, 2004 11:44 PM

One reason nobody much responded might be that there was nothing much to respond to, can that be possible? When you define terms to suit yourself, of course it all agrees with what you think.

You can keep monitors full-time in the dark (which you say you've done, hard to imagine why anyone would mistreat animals like that), or full-time in the light (ditto, in my opinion), and guess what, they'll be active some of the time and inactive some of the time. What does that prove? And yes, in the field, real monitors go in holes where it's dark, even in the daytime, and they might even take a nap in there. Does that mean they come out and wander around after dark? Do you seriously think that photoperiod has no physiological effects on animals?

Get serious, Frank. Real (wild) monitors aren't out at night. No one, anywhere, has ever documented any monitor foraging or traveling around at night, and plenty of people have had the interest and ability to check on this point. As it gets dark, monitors find some protected spot and settle in. Sure, they will bolt from these places if a snake or some other predator comes along, but they aren't able to find another refuge in the dark, and end up sitting in odd places, such as the middle of a road. We've all found a monitor or two "out" at night, but they aren't doing a thing, just sitting there hoping to not get eaten by something before it gets light. They can't see what's coming after them, and they can't see where to go, which is a bad combination. People who study monitor eyes will tell you that their night vision is just about nonexistent.

And photoperiod matters, a lot, no matter what you think. Going down a hole (getting out of the light) doesn't cut it, because what matters is the transition at dawn and at dusk, as well as the duration of the light cycle and its seasonal cycling. "Tell my montiors about endocriminiolgicky they lay clutches lots hahahaha" doesn't contradict 100 years of careful experimental work, sorry.

Listen to your animals. Out bush, monitors don't go anywhere in the dark. If they're active at night in their cages, something is messed up.

"When nobody has a clue what you're talking about, they sure are stupid haha"

Lucien Nov 17, 2004 01:37 AM

Sorry but on the "There has been nothing documented of any monitor feeding at night" subject.. there has been... Komodo Monitors have been documented to feed in the very early (still dark) hours of the morning when you'd expect them to be looking for some warm area to wait for the sun to come up and warm them up. If I remember correctly someone said something about olivacious(sp?) as well feeding at night. My captive Bosc will feed at night in the absence of a heat source or a light source... So to put a blanket phrase that they do not hunt and eat in the dark hours is very misleading.
-----
Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
3.5.3 Leopard geckos (2.0 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 0.1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short), 1.0 Rainwater Albino (Mycah), 0.4 Poss. Het. Albino (Annika, Lace, Rain and Aris) and 2.1 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice, Malfeas, and Mystic))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
3 cats (Ashe, Sahara and Hercules)
6 Fish (4 Red Danios, 1 Cardinal Fish, and 1 Tiger Barb)
8 Ramshorn snails
"And a Partridge in a Pear Tree!"

mequinn Nov 17, 2004 02:41 AM

Hi Lucian,
Well your reply was not entirely credible either - how about a personal observation or a reliable source to back up your rebuke?

How about this one from a wild scenario, as a captive scenario could be an artifact of said captive conditions, and not a 'natural behavior'...i.e. "I have seen V. panoptes feed numerous times at night in my own animals." or "I observed my 1.1 V. jobiensis feeding on rat pups and/or crayfish in the early pre-dawn hours of a day." These are both observations I have made of my own captive animals, and speak for themselves as merely observation of nocturnal feeding behavior; however one should consider that tree monitors, like V. olivaceus, V. prasinus complex, V. jobiensis do wake at pre-dawn hours, and although more sedentary in their activity modes, are awake, and feeding when alot of animals are still asleep (see Auffenberg, 1988:99-110 for comparison/contrast of V. olivaceus in wild scenarios).

FURTHERMORE: Here is another report that supports nocturnal foraging/feeding behavior:

Irwin, S., B. Lyons, and T. Frisby. 1996. Nocturnal Activity by Varanus panoptes at Cape Melville. Herpetofauna 26(2):50.

So Lucian, try being more specific and less flipant in a rebuke as it also enlightens others who have/have not thought about the topic at hand before, or better yet, enhances knowledge about these most fascinating of animals we enjoy so much - if you can give details, whether personal observations and/or citations will make your argument more credible.

Cheers,
mbayless

SHvar Nov 17, 2004 10:30 AM

An adult nile stealing food from a lion at night on a video, the lizard went out of its way at night to find the lions kill steal a piece and tail slap while standing its ground while eating then walking away to go digest its meal. Most monitors dont have the best night vision, they do alot of circles at night outdoors. But there are many get active at all hours from early morning, late evening, and every few hours in between if they have the ability to do so.

Lucien Nov 17, 2004 10:38 AM

Sorry.. It was kinda late and I was simply surfing through before heading to bed to cite soure material. There was a study done during the ongoing observation of their behavior that asked why Komodo's were able to function during a time when its actually quite cool for the islands they live on. Why they were able to retain enough body heat to function on a "hunting" level in the early morning hours. I can't remember EXACTLY where I read about it...sorry.. I wish I could because I'd go back and re-read it...I'm not a walking encyclopedia of reports and books on everything that has been observed by biologists studying monitors.
-----
Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
3.5.3 Leopard geckos (2.0 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 0.1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short), 1.0 Rainwater Albino (Mycah), 0.4 Poss. Het. Albino (Annika, Lace, Rain and Aris) and 2.1 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice, Malfeas, and Mystic))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
3 cats (Ashe, Sahara and Hercules)
6 Fish (4 Red Danios, 1 Cardinal Fish, and 1 Tiger Barb)
8 Ramshorn snails
"And a Partridge in a Pear Tree!"

FR Nov 17, 2004 01:15 PM

We have found a distint preference for our outdoor monitors to forage for food just before the sun comes up. Of course to me, this was not logicial and did not follow the normal paradign, of monitors heating up, then hunting. But, no matter what I thought, they did it anyway. Also, I have posted here about our lacies hunting at night. I will be outside and hear a bunch of noise and go and investigate to find them chasing mice. Who would have thought mice would come out at night(hahahahahahahaha) Thats what happens when you have deep substrate, the mice can and do, RUN AND HIDE. But they must come out sometime,hahahahahahaha I guess the monitors know that sort of stuff. FR

harely Nov 17, 2004 01:49 PM

It was seen on television on nat. geographic reptile wild is the name of the show .....with Dr. Brady Barr , but those komodos werent being experimented on at night it was already daylight, but not hot enough for them to bask just yet.

Lucien Nov 17, 2004 08:27 PM

Actually no.. I READ this... not watched it... I know Brady Barr did that show but this was a similar study done before that show was even made... It might sound like I was describing that but it wasn't at all...
-----
Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
3.5.3 Leopard geckos (2.0 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 0.1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short), 1.0 Rainwater Albino (Mycah), 0.4 Poss. Het. Albino (Annika, Lace, Rain and Aris) and 2.1 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice, Malfeas, and Mystic))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
3 cats (Ashe, Sahara and Hercules)
6 Fish (4 Red Danios, 1 Cardinal Fish, and 1 Tiger Barb)
8 Ramshorn snails
"And a Partridge in a Pear Tree!"

SamSweet Nov 17, 2004 01:34 PM

If there's anybody else out there who believes that TV wildlife shows aren't staged and manipulated, I can offer you great deals on 2' long camel spiders.

FR Nov 17, 2004 03:43 PM

They talked about a specific show, with a specific person, seeing or looking at a specific behavior. And your responce, as usual, is to attack TV shows in general. How sad sir, how come you cannot converse about the subject, instead of attacking the whole world(anything not you) Do you understand, no one has to be right, or wrong for that matter, we are merely discussing a subject.

I know, I have seen monitors out after dark and I have seen them active pre-dawn(which is still defined as night) I have seen this in both nature and captivity. How about you? it really can be that simple, a yes or no. Cheers FR

SHvar Nov 17, 2004 10:20 PM

Im sure the tourists watching lions didnt set it up from the SUV as they watched. Ill be sure to tell them next time that you called their home video a hoax and that someone set it up. By the way how are those croc monitors, still not healthy, still have infected injuries that wont heal? Im asking because you are the expert right. Oh how do they like their gravel parking lot? You mention what you say you saw in nature but you never say what happens anymore with your CAPTIVE monitors.

Clay Nov 17, 2004 11:02 PM

SHvar, you are one to talk, mate. We've all seen photos of your setup - five foot monitor in six foot cage. Oh wait, that was several years ago - just as was Sam's croc!

Gravel substrate was on the bottom of a 4 x 4' water tub not the bottom of the whole enclosure, while keeping a five foot monitor cramped in a six foot cage most certainly was an effort on your part.

I don't know why people ignore the reality - his croc was in someone else's care while he spent a year in Kakadu studying wild goannas. It was out of his hands - but go ahead and see it however it fits you best. There is a reason he ignores the comments regarding that salvadorii situation, people here are bloody ignorant, don't listen to a word said unless it suits their attacks - would you bother repeatedly defending yourself in said circumstances?

As for his current pair, Sam has shared photos on a weekly basis with me, they are doing fabulous by the looks of it. His male, Condyle, was at six feet at a year old (just a few months back). Female, Batface, is not far behind. I mention this only because I assume you care about the size, considering you post every mm growth you document with your Albig (paired with a photo of it next to your fiance).

Lets not throw rocks when we are in glass houses, eh?

SHvar Nov 18, 2004 09:41 PM

"SHvar, you are one to talk, mate. We've all seen photos of your setup - five foot monitor in six foot cage. Oh wait, that was several years ago - just as was Sam's croc!"

Interesting why then does he not give any info or updates on them?

"Gravel substrate was on the bottom of a 4 x 4' water tub not the bottom of the whole enclosure, while keeping a five foot monitor cramped in a six foot cage most certainly was an effort on your part."

While I was building a cage it was, as I am building another yet now.

"I don't know why people ignore the reality - his croc was in someone else's care while he spent a year in Kakadu studying wild goannas. It was out of his hands - but go ahead and see it however it fits you best. There is a reason he ignores the comments regarding that salvadorii situation, people here are bloody ignorant, don't listen to a word said unless it suits their attacks - would you bother repeatedly defending yourself in said circumstances? "

He never answered a single question about his crocs ever, to anyone on any forum when he was asked. Whos repeatedly defending himself, hes just insulting, acting ignorant in responces to anyone who diagrees no matter whats the situation or point.

"As for his current pair, Sam has shared photos on a weekly basis with me, they are doing fabulous by the looks of it. His male, Condyle, was at six feet at a year old (just a few months back). Female, Batface, is not far behind."

Now this could have helped alot, a long time ago but now someone else posts it, not him, why?

"I mention this only because I assume you care about the size, considering you post every mm growth you document with your Albig (paired with a photo of it next to your fiance)."

Lets see,where have I heard this before, blah blah blah, some of us enjoy keeping and caring for our captives. Of course I enjoy posting new pics of my monitors also, and helping others out. Im damn proud of my monitors and no matter what crap you wanna spew or believe or post it doesnt affect a thing. Here is a picture of a real monitor in a real burrow, oh and by the way, shes 6ft 3 inches and 28lbs if you didnt catch it before, oh and it was taken at 10:40pm November 18th 2004.

"Lets not throw rocks when we are in glass houses, eh?"

I see no point to your crap post nor your association to any glass house.

SamSweet Nov 17, 2004 11:09 PM

You were actively posting on another forum about a year ago when the same croc came up, and you read and commented on the detailed exchange then. Are you just forgetful now, or are you lying? Neither recommends you, you know!

SHvar Nov 18, 2004 09:17 PM

Again you cant or wont answer, I bring up a valid point and you respond with insults and call me a liar. Hmm, same responce you seem to give anytime someone shows or demonstrates reality against your theory.
I like when you post on wild monitors, medical info, studies on wild monitors etc but you dont seem to get the idea they are not captive monitors. I really liked your post on how eggs are formed and a few other good ones but you have to quit with the ignorant behavior.

SamSweet Nov 18, 2004 09:55 PM

To you is what did your post have to do with the thread, and whether you really have forgotten the lengthy exchange I referred to? Seemed to me that your post here was just a diversion in the hope of being obnoxious.

Come to think of it, why are you replying in this thread at all?

SHvar Nov 18, 2004 09:52 PM

And I remember posting and asking a few months ago about your croc when I first heard about that situation and saw the pic then, I dont remember it a year ago. But if you say so, maybe we did discuss it. The only comment you ever made to me about your crocs and how they were doing was as follows.

"Some of us can FR and chew at the same time".
Remember that quote?

SamSweet Nov 18, 2004 10:09 PM

Sorry Shawn, I'll remember. But you didn't spell that quote right.........

FR Nov 17, 2004 11:05 AM

Again Sam your such a funny person full of such paradigns.

If you only knew anything about what your saying or actually had experience. But alas, you don't. You are smart, but to what use.

I live in the desert. This desert is full of reptiles. These reptiles are often labelled as nocturnal or diurnal. The problem is, in REAL life is, it does not seem to work out like that.

Like, Collard lizards, Spinys, Chucks, Desert Iggies, Zebra tails, Side bloched lizards, etc, are labelled diurnal, yet we commonly see them active at night. We see them crossing the road while snake hunting, out sitting here and there while hiking at night. Or simply hunting and feeding at night around my property. I guess a naive person like you could say, they were just sitting(fell asleep) from the day, except if you remove them from the road, and come back, there are more and more and more. Hmmmmmmmmm. An example, I built a huge outdoor enclosure(20 X 20 x 10feet) and installed blacklites that went on at night to attrack insects into the cage for the ackies and tristis to eat. In my little pea brain, this was going to be a very good system. only funny thing happened on the way to the forum. Our local diurnal lizards ate the bugs, they would come out at night and gathered around the blacklites and consume the bugs before the next day. To question this(more on questioning later) did they come out at night to take advantage of a food source or did they come out at night to avoid the monitors, both good questions, but alas, they did come out at night, all on their own.

Ok, I have seen five species of varanid crossing the road at night in nature. Whats very funny about this is two species, V.tristis and V.glebopalma, are both discribed as being active at night(in the summer) I cannot believe you have not noted that.

We discussed this many years ago, here on KS, and a fella from Sydney(forgot his name, moved to indo) also disagreed with me, that is until he found a adult male lacies walking across the road at night.

This thread was about reptiles being "nocturnal". So many of our reptiles are labelled nocturnal. Species like Gilas, or lyresnakes(many more) Well sir, I will bet you ten thousand dollars, I can find ten times more of these two species active and out in the day, then you can find out at night. The sonoran lyresnake. T.lambda, has enlarged eyes with ellipticial pupils, yet they are, as i mentioned, very daytime active. I can explain why, can you?

This was about photo-period, I mentioned varanids are not rooted(like plants) and in reality, are not exposed to the sun the entire time its up. Do you disagree with this? its my opinion, that at any givin time more individual monitors are in, then are out. Its also my opinion, that monitors are active when "in" and do not immediately fall asleep when going in, and wake up the next day. Again, do you have an opinion on this?

Again your failure to think, comprehend and actually use your head is amazing. The reason I jokingly call you MS(misterScience) is, your in my opinion, the opposite of science. This is also why I called you PseudoScience(above), You are controlled by opinion and paradign. You do not test whats in question, which I believe is you JOB. I would hope you are above quoting petshop reptile books and carry on a decent conversation, again I am wrong. To test something, like keeping monitors without lites, You know buddy, to test out the the paradign. You can say whatever you like, but I will compare the health of this dark monitor, to the health of any of yours with lites and to anybodys here. To explain this even further, Its a test you nitwit, I would not routinely keep monitors without lite. The fact that you routinely use the exception(this test and the like) and use it as a tool to disparage people, only shows your not a scientist, but instead a joke.

As I explained, this was not about how I kept monitors,which you are absolutely st#^%%%&id about. That means, you are past ignorant because you know I exsist, you know my success, but are afraid to investigate. Back to the thread, Or how Bob kept them, this thread was about monitors themselves or even reptiles. That you do not know how to read is very disturbing.

More disturbing is, as much and as often as you criticize me, WHY is it I have so much more success with both captive and wild monitors? Your failure to address this reflects on your intent and abilities.

So Sir MS or SS, I end with this, I did say i have kept a couple of individual monitors successfull without lites for about three years now. I did not say, in the dark or absence of lite. Which brings me to another misunderstanding, I was mistaken in thinking that getting a MS or PHD in science related subjects, was suppose to teach you science. Maybe you just forgot the basics of science, that is, to question, to question, to question, to question. Sir, why do you attack and not ask questions? why do you CONSTANTLY label and not test? Sir, to not question, to not test and to label are all extremely unscientific approaches. (I hope your peers read this)

I am sorry for the agressive post, but you are so disappointing, if only you could have a decent conversation, and show your believes and experiences, U KNOW, have a discussion. Or even provoke me to prove what I say, I will u know. And I will do it nicely if you ask or question nicely. But you only know how to attack. I hope this works for you and your science(hahahahaha)

PPS I do understand why you attack, you simply have nothing to respond with and you know I will bury you with pictures of I have said. Thanks for considering and listening, FR

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