Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I must make an apology for starting a debate thread and then not responding to it. I had a late arrest last night and did not get home til late and missed out on the debates, but I wanted to touch on a few points made…
Stuart brought up the point of the Albino fertility problem being an inbreeding issue and I must say I agree. Inbreeding is commonly a cause of infertility in animals, it just may be the creator’s way of stopping the entire gene line from going to hell in a hand basket. Unfortunately it didn’t help for the population of Kentucky (LOL just kidding guys), But inbreeding is an obvious issue with it.
Hermann brought out the point, that if it was just an inbreeding problem, then wouldn’t insular Boa populations show such problems. After all the insular boa populations have inbreed and Naturally selectively breed to the point of mutation! That shows some serious inbreeding. That too seems to have some common sense validity to it, except that Eric feels Hermann’s opinion was without merit. But I got the feeling that it was based more on Hermann bashing then genuine disbelief of the point? (Just my reading on the post?)
Tim felt that the same issue could happen to the locality breeders due to the relative small gene pool and the extreme demand to keep the lines pure. That locality breeders will basicly breed themselves out of snakes in their ever vigilant struggle to keep captive Boas from the south east corner of Lima Peru, that were found next to Jose’s truck, exactly like the first one ever saw there? Surely, that extreme form of locality breeding will lead to inbreeding problems.
MammasBoy scolded Hermann because Ralph Davis had a bad breeding season last year after Ralph changed one little thing in his breeding setup? I don’t know what that had to do with the discussion but I found it interesting that Hermann was again blamed for it? By the way Mammas Boy (and no, I am not making fun of his name, it is what he post under!) What was the change that he made that caused the problems with the breeding season? Now I am curious.
Hermann also blamed inbreeding and selective breeding in dogs on the health issues that face pure bred dog breeding, relating that information to Boa breeding as an indirect point. RoyerReptiles bolstered that point by bringing up the fact that many of the now common dog breeds were bred for specific traits, while the problematic traits were ignored and let to stay associated with the desired traits. An example that I imagined might have driven that point home is the Great Dane. Bred for it’s giant size and docile manor, no one ever considered the problems associated with a 200lbs dog, such as weak hip joints and heart problems?
Still a few others mentioned that DNA mapping and genetic mapping may be needed to solve these questions once and for all? What? Do any of you guys have the equipment needed to do that in your snake rooms? Did I miss the reptiles issue that showed the do it at home DNA test kit? I didn’t think so, so in the real world a guy like me with 40 or so hobby snakes, will never have the ability to DNA or Gene map anything, so common sense and experience will have to do for now……
A couple of additional points that I would like to mention is this:
1) The fertility problem with Albino boas may not be truly link to the inbreeding issue at all, but a related and attached genetic defect that is inherent and yet recessive to the mutation to start with. Follow this thought if you will, The infertility problem is 2nd or 3rd recessive and matched only to the Albino gene. So you would have to have a pair of Albino Boas that both carried the double matched infertility gene to develop the problem, meaning that this problem would show up in 1 out of 4 albino to albino breedings (by percentage).
2) this could be the reason why the issue has not arisen in insular or captive locality breeding populations.
3) the Albino gene is a “defective” trait altogether and may indeed harbor other sub-traits, such as tendency toward blindness or eye trouble and inbreeding the trait only compounds the problem.
4)The fact that the Albino bloodline is outbreed often does not diminish the fact that we are dealing with the same recessive gene that the original snake had. Although we constantly breed in new blood to the line, the trait is always bred back out, because it is the trait itself that is the goal, and if it is the trait itself that harbors the defect, then all the out breeding in the world would not change the effect of the defect when the trait is bred back out again!
WOW! If you have made it this far in the post, well you have way too much time on your hands. If you understand what the heck it is that I am trying to say, well then you may need psychiatric help LOL.
Let me finish (please) by saying yes I am a morpher, now I am not (any longer) in any field of study of science and these are just my thoughts being said aloud to be discussed to the group. I hope we can discuss them in a civil manner.
Oh also RoyerReptiles did make the excellent point of preserving the Rain Forest habitat…to this I must agree and I hereby state that as of this minute I will no longer log or clear cut any land south of Key West. This will become my personal policy!
Thanks
Jim Hopkins
Oh and if I paraphrased your post incorrectly, I am sorry, they were all my interpretation of your written words.

Kentucky reference.Ever since they cheated my beloved Fighting Illini out of a Final Four appearance in the mid 80's when the elite 8 game was played on their home floor,I have felt the same exact way.Any customer of mine that happens to reside in Kentucky gets an animal with a kinked back at least.(Along with the explanation of why I had to do it due to the aforementioned Final Four robbery of the mid 80's.)Don't have many repeat customers from Kentucky,but is it my fault?I think not.

This has nothing at all to do with your post but I think we should all ship only to customers that reside in Canada.Hopefully this fellow won't mind my repeating this,and if he does,please erase it before you read it,but I got a call tonight from a fellow who bought a couple of animals from me.He placed a big order with Bob Clark and Bob was kind enough to have me send him the animals that I sold to be included in the shipment.The customer called to say that all went well and I was about to tell him that my shipping to Bob ran 75 bucks and I only had him send 50 dollars, when he told me that his shipping bill wound up running...are you ready for this? Uh....8,8000 dollars.Yep,the comma is in the right place.They charged him commercial rates,two huge inspection fees,and it came to 8,800 dollars.I told him to forget the extra 25.

Now I understand why the have a reputation as poor tippers, the get cleaned out at the boarder, That is steep!
Jim

I wasn't out to "bash" Hermin. That's far from the truth. All I wanted was proof that Insular Boas #1 Inbreed, and #2 have been inbreeding for hundreds or thousands of years. I know it sounds assanine when it is written, but it can be done. All it takes is someone with initiative, and several hundred DNA samples. Put it this way; I can say I have a Surinam Boa untill I'm blue in the face, but do I have any difinitive proof? No, I don't, I can only assume that it's from Surinam based on what the dealer told me, or what the paperwork says. I can tell you this though, and it is a fact, that I ( or anyone else ) can only assume unless I have concrete evidence. In this case, we don't have concrete evidence about how insular populations work, so everything is heresay untill credible studies are done. Am I wrong with that statement?

I would not say that you are wrong, but that you are ignoring plain common sense. Obviously nobody here is going to have the insane amount of resources needed to give you the 100% absolute proof that you are asking for on the breeding habits of insular populations of Boas. However, insular populations of just about everything has been studied on the Galapagos Islands for many years and the main theory of Natural selection is based on the fact that inbreeding must occur in order for an isolated population to achieve drastic change form the original population. I see your point about “no one can say for sure” But common sense would suggest if you put two animals on an island and both animals are of the opposite sex, the fact that the animals may be brother and sister is not going to stop them for doing the wild thing together and to argue other wise is just playing devils advocate for the sake of argument.
I don't say this to offend or with harsh thoughts, just my opinion.
Jim

This is really a problem to boas and pythons in general. For some reason colubrids are almost devoid of problems stemming from inbreeding. Of course occasionally inbreeding does cause specific problems such as the bug eyed leucistic rats. However I know people that have bred albino cal kings to albinos for generations with no problem. However when they started to do that with the albino burms the problems arose. It happens. It happens in boas and pythons that are NORMALS not just some mutation. It has something to do with the "boid" family in general. You cant breed generation after generation of normal boas without problems. Go ahead and look. There have been instances of enlarged hearts, failed kidneys, one eyed animals and other problems, let me ask you how many one eyed albino cal kings or cornsnakes are there? Where are they? They were being bred clear back to the 60s if Im correct. So its NOT AN ALBINO PROBLEM! Its a boid problem in general. 2 or 3 generations of inbreeding will be all it takes I think. But who am I? LOL. And insular boas being bred for thousands of years on 1 island? Please lol dont make me laugh thats impossible. Also there is something called pheremones. Humans even emit these to attract a mate. The human nose picks up on these smells and then registeres in the brain how closely related someone is to you opposites attract? Ever heard of that. Well its scientific fact that the human family tries to stay away from inbreeding by using these pheremones. Now how do we know these dont change? How do you know mother nature in her infinite wisdom changes these things ever so often so boas are attracted to another type not so closely related to them thereby outbreeding themselves. Hmmm something smells good over on that island over there maybe I should mosey on over and take a look BAM oubred boas. BOAS CAN SWIM YOU KNOW lol. Not a huge leap to see them island hopping. And what does science know anyhow? Nothing really. Ask them how the world was created duh! They can come up with hundreds of ways but cant agree on anything. Heck they change scientific names of animals all the time cause they think they know what they are doing and really what do they know? Tell me!

that is able to swim large distances. You somehow confused this with a boa.

Regarding the pheromones... here is the extract of a study of the British scientists that was published in January 2001:

They determined that in some cases, incest may have some advantages. They examined the genocide of a small horde of cattle from northern England. These so-called Chillingham-cows have been known since the 13th century.

According to certain documents, they have been inbreeding exclusively for the last 300 years.
The genetic analysis confirmed this documentation: in all examined cows, 24 of 25 genetic markers were identical. According to one of the researchers, there would have been no more than 18 identical markers in a normal horde. By this, the Chillingham-cows could almost considered to be clones.
Despite this massive inbreeding, the animals are healthy and keep on reproducing. The researchers therefore believe that the inbreeding has resulted in a loss of unsuitable genetic variants in this case (Source: Nature, Vol. 409, No. 6818, 18.1.01, p 303 / New Scientist, 18.1.01).

You see, not even the pheromones have prevented son bull to mate mother cow. *LOL*
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

It is not just a Boid Problem, it is also a problem that effects Finches, parakeets, Parrots, Dalmatian dogs, Albino Rat snakes and humans so no it is not just a boid problem or issue. As far as the insular boa thing goes, I don’t see how you could not understand that the populations breed within itself, sure they raft from time to time, but the fact that each population is distinct unto itself is strong evidence of inbreeding and Natural Selection, I do agree that science is far from all knowing and what we think we know today will be far from what we will know to be true in 50 years from now, it is a fluid study and it constantly changes…….
Jim

Personally I don't find it hard to believe that insular varieties are so inbred and still seem healthy. Any animals that may have been born with a resulting "defect" would be picked off by the forces of nature. A one-eyed boa is not likely to do so well, etc. etc.

The difference is natural selection. We force feed weak babies and breed everything that carries the trait we desire, because in captivity, with our help, it is "fit enough" to survive. In this aspect, the chances of wild caught animals being "superior" to captive bred and raised animals is apparent. They've already proved that they have what it takes to survive (in the case of subadults and older, anyways) the rigors of the wild.

In any litter, all siblings are not intended to survive, but they often do in our hands. Yes, this is a testament to our husbandry, but, it has it's side effects as well. Just an observation....

And a very reasonable answer to why the "defective" genes are not widley seen in these populations. The non-benifical genes are taken out of the equation by nature...
Nice point
Jim

>> And what does science know anyhow? Nothing really.

Not much, just how to cure hundreds of diseases, how to grow enough food to feed 6 billion people, how to put men on the moon, and how to create things like semiconductors so that nitwits like you can spew your ignorance all over the Internet.

Let me just clarify one thing: I'm not suggesting anyone reading this board has a genetics lab in their basement. What I said was "we won't know for sure until someone maps it and studies it", which is 100% true. Is it going to happen anytime soon? No. Has it been done for threatened animals before? Lots of times...a very popular case in point being the cheetah.

Additionally, Hoppy's response to my suggestion of maintaining the current habitats was exactly the frame of mind I was alluding to. The "it's not my problem", "I didn't chop down any trees" mentality. If you really cared about the "localities" (and I'm not suggesting anyone does) than I would expect you to know everything about that "locality".

There are other ways to help preserve habitat than to not go chop down trees...look into conservation programs, boycott imported goods made from natural resources in the area, try to boost the market for alternative industries that will allow native people an alternative to the destruction...are they extreme concepts? Not when you look at the extremities that people go to to defend their opinions on this board.

My opinion: you can't have an intelligent discussion if nobody has any original ideas.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought, without accepting it". - Aristotle

PEACE

it's very true. most of the argentinian meat americans get, for instance, was produced by clearcutting the rainforest to allow for pastures. i once read a statistic that related to the amount of forest that was clear-cut for the amount of beef imported to america that one year, and it was devestating. i am not a vegetarian, but we could all do our part to eat organic or home-grown animals when we can. in addition, large farm-raised animals usually live a very tortured existence. i was reading a package of butter here, and the front said, 'OUR COWS EAT 100% GRASS!' what a time we live in when this is a proud statement. 'our cows don't eat other dead cows ground into their feed!' obviously, the threat of mad cow disease is still fresh in britain. it won't be long before contamination of our food catches up to us. what gets approved is a travesty. unfortunately, a necessity in a large, growing population that demands cheap food.

as far as the albino gene, i would not be surprised if there was a defect associated with the gene. numerous genes associate themselves solely with certain phenotypes and genotypes. it's no new concept in genetics, such as sex linked genes, etc. the concept of saying that albinism isn't a defective gene because kingsnakes can reproduce is ridiculous. the calico trait is sex-determined in cats. it doesn't mean that humans or other animals carry sex determined calico traits. every genetic make-up is different.

You suggest that we boycott an already devastatingly poor country because you feel that they should save their forest regardless of cost…..
It is an easy thing to say while in the comfort of your own home, typing on your computer key board, knowing that in the US most of any large section of forest and habitat have been destroyed for the comfort of our people already.
If you want to influence the governments of the Amazon regions and have them preserve the rain forest then you have to make it worth their while, boycotting them would have the opposite effect. You have to make it so the rain forest is more valuable to them as it is then the harvested resources it has. Costa Rica has moved its largest source of revenue from Coffee and bananas (Agriculture) to Eco-Tourism. Then now have a valuable commodity in place.
If you want to save the rain forest, come off the soapbox and come off you wallet. Pay to save words are cheap and to stand up and shout “Save the rain Forest” is a pretty easy thing to do, but doing something about it is much more difficult. I will be in Lima Peru next week helping build a library for a village on the outskirts of the city, I will be in Ecuador in April with National geographic, and I will be in Costa Rica in Nov spending my hard earned money on their eco-tours helping preserve their resources. Not once during any of those trips will I judge the people of those countries for doing what they need to do to survive, because when I am done enjoying my trips through South and Central America, I too will come back to the comfort of my home and type on my keyboard and not really worry if I am going to be able to feed my family next week because some one wants to boycott my only means of supporting my family. Instead of preaching get in the game! Words are not what men are judged by it is our actions that matter……
Jim Hopkins

My post said: "look into conservation programs, boycott imported goods made from natural resources in the area, try to boost the market for alternative industries that will allow native people an alternative to the destruction...are they extreme concepts?"

Note the last part about alternative sources of income.....

it seems that genetic problems seem to pop up every now and then in the Kahl line of albinos. What about the Sharp line? I haven't seen many apparent genetic defects like missing eyes in that line. So I'm wondering if anyone has had experience with this aspect of the Sharp lines.

no text
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!