Reptile & Amphibian Forums

that came from Chad Fuchs of CF Snakes. I hope they produce their first eggs this coming season.

Terry Parks

Terry, I'm glad you're breeding those. That's a great snake and you're keeping it going in the hobby. Sometimes I wish I still had the Chinese race too. TC.

Thanks TC. There's some snakes I miss and wish I still had. One of the hard parts of this hobby is when we have to make those type decisions regarding our collections. I'm going to take some updated pics of my SK and other diones this weekend and post some. I need a few updated pics of my bimaculatas too. Did you mention in a post that you put your bimacs and/or diones together prior to brumation? I mean diones with diones and bimacs with bimacs. If that's the case, should I have mine together now as I will be putting them down a week or two after Thanksgiving. I'm flexible so it can be a few weeks after that in putting them down if needed.

Terry Parks

>>Thanks TC. There's some snakes I miss and wish I still had. One of the hard parts of this hobby is when we have to make those type decisions regarding our collections. I'm going to take some updated pics of my SK and other diones this weekend and post some. I need a few updated pics of my bimaculatas too. Did you mention in a post that you put your bimacs and/or diones together prior to brumation? I mean diones with diones and bimacs with bimacs. If that's the case, should I have mine together now as I will be putting them down a week or two after Thanksgiving. I'm flexible so it can be a few weeks after that in putting them down if needed.
>>
>>Terry Parks

Hi, Terry.

Schulz first mentioned the fact that Elaphe dione could breed from fall matings. I actually tried an experiment once, with Chinese dione, I think, and let them mate in the Fall. The female did have a fertile clutch w/o ever having mated again. I normally breed them twice now. You can put them together in the Fall sometime before brumation, like when they stop eating and have 2-3 wks before cool-down. You can put them together before that too, just not so early that the eggs start to develop. I wouldn't put them together in September, for instance. I already have my South Koreans together and they are now in cool-down about 70*F, so far. I will brumate them for about four months, if they are cold enough, low 50's. In the Spring I will bring them out together and let them warm up. They usually mate during this period before eating. Later, after a few weeks of feeding, the eggs will start to develop. Measuring the time, you can see that the eggs are fertilized as soon as the female begins to produce them, as she is carrying the fertile sperm. Of the half doz, or so, clutches we've had, not one egg was infertile.

Shortly after experimenting with the dione, we noticed that the E. bimaculata were breeding in the Fall too. If anything they are even more enthusiastic. I did one experiment with a male and three females and he bred them all in the Fall in the same cage. I left them together all winter and let them breed again in the Spring, but don't think it would have been necessary. So, the Fall breedings are like an insurance policy with these two species. Leaving them together during brumation also saves space, if you want to do that. It helps me because I keep all my brumating snakes in a walk-in closet. The females are usually obviously gravid within a month, or so, after coming out.

My bimacs are doing great and still feeding. I'm going to put the adults down the first week of December to give them and me a break, but we could keep them going longer if we wanted to. Bimaculata doesn't need the length of brumation that dione does. I won't be breeding bimacs next Spring either, as I have six babies I'm raising from the last clutches of 2004, and don't need any more of the same. I do have some new ones that will be ready in 2006 to breed though. I'll keep you posted on how the babies are developing. Plus, remember I'm always open to new color phases and mutations, if you see any.

It's really hard cutting back, especially when there's new species you'd really like to work with. I have to keep reminding myself that it will only be a few yrs. and I'll be in AZ. Long enough only to raise up one more batch to breeding age. I'm thinking I'll probably get out of the Asians almost entirely by selling my taeniura and mandarina. I think I'll want animals that will be better suited to life in the Southwest, and there's a lot of those..heheh. If anyone keeps track they might get some great deals down the line, hint, hint.

Look forward to your pics....TC.

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains ratsnakes and corns

Any spare Mandarins would surely find a home... at least at my home!
Great post on the potential for fall breeding, I hadn't even considered that as an option.

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Lora

Thanks, Lora. My South China pair are five yrs. old now. I've brought them along slowly, so they should still be productive until ten or more yrs. old. The taeniura will probably be harder to get rid of, except for the morphs

The Fall breeding is a unique option. I've only done it a few times, but it seems to work well. In fact, I'm wondering if there aren't more sps. that can breed in the Fall. I may try it with my Chinese taeniura, but will be a couple more yrs. since I'm raising up my next breeders.

It will be hard to part with these great snakes. Later...TC.

Thanks TC for the nice answer to my question breeding/brumating question. I think I'll put my bimacs and diones together for a couple weeks before brumating. My bimacs and diones are still eating too. My climacs have gone off feeding and so have my black pine snakes. It doesn't bother me when the pinesnakes go ff feed as they can eat so much over the summer.

Terry Parks

>>Thanks TC for the nice answer to my question breeding/brumating question. I think I'll put my bimacs and diones together for a couple weeks before brumating. My bimacs and diones are still eating too. My climacs have gone off feeding and so have my black pine snakes. It doesn't bother me when the pinesnakes go ff feed as they can eat so much over the summer.
>>
>>Terry Parks

You're welcome, Terry. One of the things I like about the bimacs and feel helps make them a good pet is that you can keep them feeding for as long as you want. The dione are a little quicker to go off feed, but still I can keep them going until November and shorten brumation to four months, or less for subadults. I've also found they need to have good reserves and feed well before egg laying, especially with bimaculata. I don't know if you've bred yours before, but I've lost a couple females because I've handled it wrong in the Spring previously. Here's what I've found out.

When they first start to warm up in the Spring, don't feed them right away, like the first week. They need to get in their heads that the season is starting. And when you do start feeding them don't over feed. I had one bimac that ate its fill first meal and died a week later. I assume it couldn't process such a large meal. I always start them on small meals, and don't increase amounts until after I've seen them digesting normally, at least a week after first meal. Once they're going good, start to fatten up the breeding females. I've lost one female when she became eggbound. I assumed she didn't have enough body weight because she didn't eat as well as the other females. This one hurt because it was a silver phase I had raised, only one I've ever had. Here she is on her clutch...

I managed to hatch the two babies from that clutch, a male and female, but never have seen the silver phase again. The babies are two yr. olds now and are brown x silver crosses. I will integrate them into my main bimac line.

I had one other female that got eggbound. That was my blonde female. But we managed to save her by feeding her a large meal. The food seemed to push the last egg out. Last year I fed her her fill while the eggs were developing and she had no trouble dropping eight eggs, five of which hatched. I'm glad we saved her, as she's my favorite female right now, and her babies are pretty cool...more pics later. She is a great feeder, and so are her babies.

So, I think the bimacs need to be handled in a certain way in the Spring, or there could be losses, and I believe it has to do with their food intake. I also handle the dione the same way. Remember these snakes are smallish snakes, and as a result take smallish meals. A very large dione can eat a full grown mouse, but I never do that. The largest they get is a half grown mouse. The bimacs take even smaller meals, fuzzies for adults. In the Fall when they slow down they are tempted to keep going by smaller meals of live fuz and jumbo pinks. So, you can see you need a source of correct size mice for these guys too.

Good luck with yours next Spring, Terry. I have really enjoyed working with these species.

TC

>>that came from Chad Fuchs of CF Snakes. I hope they produce their first eggs this coming season.
>>
>>Terry Parks
>>

Very nice snake. I like that.
Humor an idiot, please.
What is the common name?
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Jimmy, the general name of the species is the Steppes Ratsnake. But this ratsnake has the largest range of any ratsnake in the world, and in many places doesn't live on the Steppes...in China and South Korea, for instance.

In his monograph, Schulz called this snake, Dione Ratsnake. The name Dione comes from a Greek Goddess, who was the mother of Aphrodite, I believe. I call it the Dione's Ratsnake for this reason and because my South Koreans are not from the Steppes. Terry's snake is from Central China near the East Coast of China, so he calls it cen. China dione (the sp. name). Hobbyists often use the scientific name, of course.

Dione's Ratsnakes make terrific pets, btw, but we must remember they come from a profusion of different habitats, and very little taxonomy has been done on the group. In the future, I'm sure there will be some splits, maybe all subspecies, but possibly some species too. Also, I think Terry's and my snakes are the best pets of the group, LOL.

TC
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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains ratsnakes and corns

>>Terry,
Thanks for that very thorough and informative answer.
I appreciate you taking the time to help educate me.
That was very interesting.
Do you have pictures?
I would love to see examples of specimens from different regions.
Thanks again
Jimmy
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Thanks. Jimmy, I have a few at my Gallery, but only one of Ukrainian and one of the Chinese.

There has been some posted recently. Do a search on the current page and you should find them.

Terry

Ratsnake Haven's Gallery

>>Thanks. Jimmy, I have a few at my Gallery, but only one of Ukrainian and one of the Chinese.
>>
>>There has been some posted recently. Do a search on the current page and you should find them.
>>
>>Terry
>>
>>Ratsnake Haven's Gallery

Thanks for the link great pics.
What are these snakes like?
Temperament, housing requirements, you know the usual.
The head markings look like corn snakes.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

>>Thanks for the link great pics.
>>What are these snakes like?
>>Temperament, housing requirements, you know the usual.
>>The head markings look like corn snakes.

Jimmy, the bimaculata and dione are two different species, but they have some similarities. They both have easy going temperments and are mostly diurnal, except the bimacs are usually morning and evening snakes. Bimacs also use their hide boxes more. They can be kind of quick, but are more constrictors than racers. Neither bite. I keep all my dione and bimac adult in ten gal. tanks, one each. They have large hides, and a couple plastic jugs, for food and water. I use about an inch of aspen bedding and put paper towels and newpaper in the hides to make them tight fitting. I brumate them about three months, and as stated before, they breed in Fall and Spring. Bimacs get about 3 ft. and the S. K. dione about 40 inches, or more. I have had tons of fun with these guys...great pets. I've had them since 1996.

More later...TC.

You know more about diones from TC's post than I did yesterday morning Jimmy. I really like diones. If there's an underrated NA rat snake, than dione is it's Asian counterpart. Diones don't get large, are docile, and great eaters. Some diones like the South Korean diones are active during the day unlike other rat snakes. You get to see and enjoy them more. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to any one.

Terry Parks

>>You know more about diones from TC's post than I did yesterday morning Jimmy. I really like diones. If there's an underrated NA rat snake, than dione is it's Asian counterpart. Diones don't get large, are docile, and great eaters. Some diones like the South Korean diones are active during the day unlike other rat snakes. You get to see and enjoy them more. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to any one.
>>
>>Terry Parks
>>
>>

Thanks Terry,
You just answered some of the questions I asked Terry C.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

I dont think you will ever stop amazing me with what you have.That is one sweet rat.
What else do you have hiding over there?LOL..Thanks Paul.

Thanks for the comments Paul. I'm addicted like everyone else. LOL. I need to get a recent pic of these, but R. scalaris (ladder rat snake) is one of my favorite rat snakes. I waited 2 years to get my pair. They were produced by Sacha Korell. I'll get some better pics. Scalaris, unlike a lot of rat snakes, have a prefrontal scale like pituophis. In some of the headshots I've seen, the scalari looks real similar to a bull or pine snake. The parents of mine are from France and Spain locales. Scalaris will make a pattern transition from ladder to stripes. They can be nippy when they want to. My female is calm and never has nipped me, but the male will try to nip me occassionally when I first get him out. He's O.K. after I get him out, he just isn't comfortable when you first open his enclosure and he realizes you are going to get him out.

Terry Parks

My previous post stated "prefrontal scale" and it is supposed to state "rostral scale".

Terry Parks

Hey, Terry, do you have any close-up pics of that rostral scale? Those are interesting snakes. Do they behave more like a pit than say, a corn snake? TC.