Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I really do love your version of the world. You read the manual(books) and define how the car will run. While thats almost true, its not always the case. Thats why they test drive cars, even to this day, even with very advanced computers and design programs.

The "point is" They, varanids, are active at night and in dark places, like holes tunnels and hollows. I did find them crossing the road at night, and so have others. Its published in several books that both, V.tristis, and V.glebopalma, are dusk and night active. They do come out at night here in our outdoor cages and hunt, in the dark, all on their own accord. Many many of us, see them active in the dark in our cages. This sir, is reality. It really does not have to fit, your opinion of their design parameters.

I bring this up for a very important reason, while I did say monitors are predominately diurnal(their behaviors) They also include, nocturnal behaviors. The educated question is, why and how often.(not shoot the messenger) My responce to this is, they incorperate nocturnal behaviors, when pressured to do so. These pressures are of both of positive and negative types.

Examples of positive types would be to exploit a food source. Examples of a negative type would be to avoid unwanted external stresses. Like extreme heat, or predators, or the stress of predators/unwanted other monitors, pressense(common in captivity)

This is why the subject was brought up, it happens, happened, and I hope will happen. Captive montiors will choose alternate behaviors to avoid unwanted stresses or take advantage of resources. Are these behaviors normal, yes they are, even if they are uncommon in nature or precieved as uncommon.

I guess this reminds me of a little fish you should be familar with, a mudskipper(on the banks of the rivers in your study area) They are fish and live in water, we all know fish live in water, don't we? But mudskippers live on land too. So, they live in water and on land. Now, all hobbyist fish keepers know fish live in water. So what are they going to do? keep mudskippers in water like other fish, or keep them on land? The answer is easy, keep them with both water and land, unfortunately, the average fish keeper, does not want to do both, so what will they do? This applies to monitors, they, the monitors, live in both an inside world, holes hollows, etc,(the water) and they live outside(the land) but most keepers(maybe you) label or judge them by your preception of what you think and not what they think. You judge captives for only a oneside view, inside.

Most field folks, like you and Daniel, and of course me, view monitors kept in cages as "different" then the ones we see in nature. The natural ones, are strong, fast, aggressive, WILD, and would never put up with sitting on someones lap and falling asleep, would they? But what would the wild ones do, if they are inside a log? Or even picked up. Well Sam, you should know this, they play dead. They do not run, stand on their hind legs and fight(if cornered), they play dead, just like the ones sleeping on folks laps. Is there an epiphany here or are you too stubborn?

So in my view, I do not think monitors believe that cages are "outside", they know they are still "inside" They behave in cages as if they were inside logs, holes and such. Its no wonder that the most tame of monitors, often(not always) go wild when placed outside.

I also do not believe monitors think a litebulb is the sun, not in any form or fashion, they treat a lite bulb as a heat source, period.

Now please understand Sam, I am at an advantage. You mentioned, that you would love to have your captive monitors in indoor/outdoor cages. My advantage Sam is, I have had that situation for over a decade with many many types of monitors. Which I believe is valid reason to view them different then you.

Its about preception, you and I are only going by what we preceive. Well, I do not preceive a cage as most do, maybe even you. I think, monitors treat a cage as inside something, not like outside.

You and others, think when a monitor is under a lite, its outside basking, and when it retreats to a plastic pipe or some such hiding area in your cages, its now going inside. Then you think of the litebulb as the sun.

As a person who has outdoor cages, indoor cages and indoor/outdoor cages and with monitors in all of them, I do not think of such things. It preceive monitors know what the sun is, and a litebulb is not it. Again, They do not behave in a cage, like they do outdoors. They do behave in a cage, like they do inside or underground, when outdoors. I hope you enjoy, FR

?

Once again Sam offered a good example of how some studies are useless to hobbyists, I cant understand why or how any long term keeper can fail to see nocturnal activities in there monitors, I guess ( formal jar collections) can only teach you so much, try keeping them live in good cages. I remember you saying stick around Steeve and witness FR’s downfall, well I did stick around and have read most of your post, also I did read franks sins the first day Iv phone him many years ago, guess what? Aside from the (maracas theory) frank has been a continuous source of applicable information’s to modern varanids husbandry, you on the other hand are not, sure you can shut all of us with your fancy words and numerous studies, but your actual husbandry practice seems very pour to me, and of little use, Frank believes you have more to give us, however I have dough’s perhaps you’ve been to busy studying them in the wilderness to understand there captive husbandry. I personally think you are out gunned when your attacking FR, but I understand why your trying so hard, Frank has a way to get this out of peoples (guess its your show now) enjoy!!

"remember you saying stick around Steeve and witness FR’s downfall."

All that typing Sam does on this forum is for that childish, petty, and vindictive reason??

Who could have imagined that.......

I don’t know Richard maybe Sam has more ego then all of us? Maybe his representing other individual who’d love to take FR down from his podium but are to worried about there reputations to do so? I know envy jealousy frustrations will make peoples act unexpectedly, as for me anger was my drive! However deep inside FR has always kept my respect.

you should really put a comma between inside and FR cause that sounded sick

hahaha sorry aim french! still learning

Wasn't all that long ago, you all disregarded everything Steeve said as an outright lie, hypocrasy at its finest. I remember some very colourful exchanges. =)

Just because you two now share a common 'enemy,' are you sure you want to take his word as gospel? Maybe I missed something these last few years.

My opinion of Steeve hasn't changed one bit. It was just a good opportunity to state the obvious.

I don't have or want one. In the case of this forum, I am what I have done and showed, period.

I do keep in my mind, how Sam said he will ruin my reputation. I remember that, because it still makes me laugh. Reputation, what the heck is this, high school, hahahahahahahahahaha. am I pregant? and whos the father????? or was it the bathwater?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, what a dork. I imagine in his world(without results) its all about reputation, but here, its all about results. hahahahahahahahaha sorry for laughing, FR

I agree that there's nothing to ruin, but would simply point out that I've never said anything like that either. Maybe I should start making up quotes from you fellas?

I love the way you guys make things up when you don't know enough to understand a post, then are the first to complain that someone else didn't address the topic. I have fun with this, really, I do, so don't worry about egos. Where else could we all learn a few extra things about monitors and at the same time get to ROFLMFAO at people so eager to display their ignorance and hypocrisy? KS is a treasure, value it!

Glade your having fun too Sam and that you realise we are all sitting at the same table! But pleas be polite, I did not call you ignorant.

Both snakes and monitors appear to be adapted to life underground. Why would we expect that monitors are inactive when they are in a burrow? We know that snakes certainly aren't inactive when they are underground, why would we think that monitors go dormantjust because they are in a hole.

I would think that some of the best feeding opportunities would be afforded monitors when they are cruising through their subterranian habitat.

Since monitors spend approx 90% of their time underground, it would seem appropriate they they are well suited to life in the dark.

I must have missed it, is there some book or books that say that monitors go dormant when they are underground?

You're right that monitors are basically "smart snakes with legs", but I don't see where this claim that they are inactive when they're in burrows, rock crevices, treeholes and so forth is coming from. It isn't coming from me -- of course they are, and I could relate lots of my own observations about them actively hunting and feeding, mating and so on in those places. So let's not deflect the discussion by going down paths that no one seems to be advocating, OK?

Just a quibble, I doubt many monitors really spend 90% of their time underground, and I really don't think so for arboreal species.

What's your point Frank?

Sam discussed biology, and more specifically the biology of the eye. He even cautioned that it is based on our current understanding of the eye. Your problem with that is what exactly?

The fact that some of your monitors are active at night? The fact that some wild monitors are active at night? So what? Does that change the biology of the eye? Does it suddenly mean that monitors can, in fact, see clearly at night or in the dark?

My monitors are occasionally active at night/dark. Usually when I have forgotten to feed them and they are hungry or when they decide they want to mate (they do it because they need to, not because they prefer to do it or want to do it or can even do it very well - they simply do it). Occasionally for other reasons I imagine. That does not mean they can see really well while doing it.

When I get up in the middle of the night for whatever reason, I generally make it to my destination in the dark with little problem (put me in a strange house and I can still do it. I have learned to pick up some other sensations that can guide me. However, I will not do it very well and will probably end up swearing a lot). My monitors do the same, I suspect. Can they see or do they just understand/recognize/know the layout of their enclosure well enough to know where they are going? Even in your outdoor cages, the environment is static for the most part (I suspect). They know the layout. In fact, they know it really well since they have all day, every day, to learn it. Your captives know their enclosure. They are comfortable moving around in the dark. It does not mean they can see clearly; it simply means they can move around somewhat proficiently.

Wild monitors may be the same way. They have home ranges and know them well, which is to their advantage. They can move around in the dark because they know what is there. It does not mean they can see it well; it just means they can navigate it. Their eyes appear to be designed for seeing best in the daytime. No amount of "nocturnal behavior" is going to change their vision abilities, no matter how much you want it to change. The fact that they are occasionally active at night does not suddenly change the ability of their eyes but simply suggests they can figure out ways to do things when they need to do so.

As for nocturnal behaviors vs. nocturnal animals, it is really quite simple. Per a search on dictionary.com: nocturnal means "most active at night" Scrolling lower there is a definition as follows: "2. Having a habit of seeking food or moving about at night; as, nocturnal birds and insects." - Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1998.

Diurnal definitions were a little more absolute but one of them stated, "chiefly active during the daytime" - Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary, 2002.

Bats would seem to be nocturnal, even if they do things in the daytime or can do things in the light.

Monitors would seem to be diurnal, even if they do some things at night or in the dark.
-----
^x^ Bloodbat ^x^
Monitors, monitors everywhere
and all the food they ate.
Monitors, monitors everywhere,
their parents loved to mate.