Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have experience with different type of snakes, but am new to Bearded Dragons. I have one because a girl I know bought one on impulse and can't keep it. So I took it and I have done some reading,but I have a few questions for the setup. The Bearded dragon is a hatchling about six inches. My setup is in a 20 gallon long tank, has a 75 watt bulb on a clamp light, an undertank heater, and two hide spots. I have two thermometers as well. I am familiar with the feeding process so that isn't a problem. Any more advice on the setup, or anything else for that matter. I appreciate the advice. Thank you.
Justin.

Also, I am somewhat of a paranoid person so the undertank heater safety aspects concern me. How safe are they to use and leave on all the time. Also, the adhesive tabs the tank came with don't lift the tank a great deal so the tank sits on the bottom of the shelf somewhat, and the shelf gets warm. Thank you.

First things first no undertank heater is not needed so yank that out. They are dangerouse and can cause burns. As for the 20L tank is fine untill the dragon grows to about 11-12 inches then uprade to a 3x2x2 minimum for one adult 4x2x2 is fine for two framales but would hold a single awesome. The day temps have to be hot 110 for hatchlimgs at a basking spot usaually people use a river rock or a log for a basking spot. Night temps can drop to 65 without harm. On the far side of the tank should be a cool side atlest down to 80 degrees during the day. Food wise hatchlings eat a lot about 20-40 appropriate size crickrts daily, no larger then the space between thier eyes. Purchasing crickets over the internet will save you a bunch of money. Check out www.reptilefood.com. They also will snack on ripped up leafy greens. Good Luck
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First things first no undertank heater is not needed so yank that out. They are dangerouse and can cause burns. As for the 20L tank is fine untill the dragon grows to about 11-12 inches then uprade to a 3x2x2 minimum for one adult 4x2x2 is fine for two framales but would hold a single awesome. The day temps have to be hot 110 for hatchlimgs at a basking spot usaually people use a river rock or a log for a basking spot. Night temps can drop to 65 without harm. On the far side of the tank should be a cool side atlest down to 80 degrees during the day. Food wise hatchlings eat a lot about 20-40 appropriate size crickrts daily, no larger then the space between thier eyes. Purchasing crickets over the internet will save you a bunch of money. Check out www.reptilefood.com. They also will snack on ripped up leafy greens. Good Luck
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Daily supplementd of calcium and vit d3 should be dusted on the cris along with a multi vit. once a week. You are also going to need a uvb producing light repti-suns by zoomed are good ones a powerdon mercury vapors I believe are the best...
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You can ditch the undertank heater. Just put a flat rock under the heat lamp. No need for a UV bulb, just make sure to dust your insects with a calcium supp. WITH d3. Mineral-I or rep-cal are both good supps.
good luck
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Do you mean a heat rock, or will a plain rock do the trick? Also will the 75 watt bulb be sufficient for enough heat?

Just a plain old flat rock, like slate. You could also pick up a piece of terra cotta tile from home depot. 75 watts should be enough heat in a 20 long. Check it with a thermometer.
good luck
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Don't use a heat rock, those things cause more thermal burns than anything. And that's a fact, not an opinion.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

I would rather give him info on what the majority of successful bearded dragons owners are using. Just my 5 cents.
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What's the difference if they are a newbie or not? It is just as easy to tell them to make sure they use a good calcium supp. with d3 then it is to tell them to use a UV bulb. It is just as easy to explain why the need a supp. with d3 as it is to explain why some feel the need for a uv bulb, is it not?
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

>>What's the difference if they are a newbie or not? It is just as easy to tell them to make sure they use a good calcium supp. with d3 then it is to tell them to use a UV bulb. It is just as easy to explain why the need a supp. with d3 as it is to explain why some feel the need for a uv bulb, is it not?
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>>Bill DiFabio
>>Azteclizard.com
>>Email Me
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~Melissa~

Melissas Menagerie

No, they use UV (as we do) to "create" d3. UV triggers a chemical reaction in the body that converts one compound to d3. The d3 in turn aids in absorption of calcium. The same thing happens when d3 is consumed in the diet(dietary d3). This is why a UV buld is not necessary to raise a dragan, AS LONG AS you use a calcium supplement with d3.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Is it much harder to tell them both what seems to be working for the majority of the people. Or easier to tell them what you beleive. Most of the breeders you named earlier trying to prove your point tell costomers that uvb is needed. Hmm. Just males semse to me to tell them what the majprity is having succsess with, but thats just my opinion.
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Don't get it. Sounds to me your just trying to get your view accross that is not a popular one to begin with. I did mention calcium and vit d3 plus a uvb light. Don't you think this is an optimum set up or at least required info for a newbie yes I said newbie. Rather then tell him he doesn't need uvb lights if he just supplements with cal and vit d3.
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All I'm saying is that if you are using a calcium supplement with d3 regularly, you don't need to spend the money on a UV bulb. Unlike you, this is not something i BELIEve to be true, it is something I KNOW to be true. I as well as other breeders I associate with have done it with many clutches with no problem. Unless you just don't believe me, you can't deny that this is a fact, not an opinion. Rather than regurgitating what you hear, try speaking from experience.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Supplementing with D3 instead of using a UVB source is not recommended for novice keepers because vitamin D3 is fat soluble making it toxic in large doses. Furthermore, many studies have shown high amounts of UVB (natural sunlight being the best) are beneficial in stimulating appetite and activity.

Peter

Peter,
Is it the UVB or the light intensity that stimulates appetite and activity? Do the study state that? How do you measure in a quantitative manner if it is indeed the UVB effecting these responses? My experiences (though not actual research) have shown me that it is light intensity that is the stimulus. Furthermore, I have raised many hatchlings using Minerall I and Rep-cal at every feeding for different groups. Never a sign of hypervitaminosis d. So, at what point do we see toxic levels? Is it really as much of a concern as it is made out to be?

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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Honestly I have not done any personal studies. The UVB study did raise the question about light intensity. SDR did a study growing hatchlings in doors rather than in their outdoor enclosures and it came up inconclusive if the positive effects on the dragons diet, activity, and color were from the high amounts of UVB or the intensity of the light from the outdoors. They found the ideal setup consisted of a mercury vapor bulb and many incandescents so it could be both. Hopefully someone down the line will do some more conclusive research. (I may do some on a clutch of mine...I have a year off before going for my DVM).

As far as vitamin D3 my conjectures are mostly based on my knowledge of human nutrition. Since D3 is fat soluble it is possible to overdose although it does not happen often in humans. Looking at the dosages on the multivitamin supplements there is a relatively high amount of D3 compared to a young dragons body mass.

If you keep accurate records, you should compile the data from your dragons and post it. I would definitely be interested in the amount of D3 that is nontoxic to a 10g baby bearded. Another thing you may want to try (maybe you have?) is to buy one mercury vapor bulb, use it on a dragon or a group of dragons and see if you notice a change in activity, appetite or color.

Peter

I wonder if they tell their new customers they don't need a uvb bulb. Hmm
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Well, to start, you can check out this link and read the FAQ's very carefully. Vicki and Rob have raised thousands of dragons using dietary d3 as the only source of the vitamin(that means no UV bulbs). I know several others that produce and raise many this way every year, it not my business to mention names on a public forum. The only reason I list this link is because it is clearly stated on the site.
Link

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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Oh what the heck mid as well throw my 2 cents in here. Dragons do NOT need UVB. There will be results published in about a year on this subject. Then everyone will be saying oh we were wrong all along, or wait most probably won't be saying that as it is outside the one track thought proccess here. I feel this study will amaze and shock everyone, and will not have any holes in it. I have seen preliminary results, but can not post them here at the request of the supplier, but dragons can grow without uvb and still have good bone calcium. The researcher that did the study wanted to sure up the results with a more indepth study before publishing them. Just my thoughts. Most people don't realize that most full spectrum bulbs produce little to no UVB. I know I didn't know that when I started and I used reptile bulbs, but not the ReptiSun bulbs which are one of very few that produce good UVB.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Thanks for adding your input Grim! I was going to add my input to your debate, but I felt it might somehow invalidate what you were trying to do in the eyes "others" on the forum.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Yeah figure I will get all my 2 cents in before I go back into not posting here. Seems whenever I post something I get frustrated by people saying, no that aint right. That book is wrong. Big breeders I know say this. Well to me my last rant about breeding has been published by one of the big three as I see them, the other two have posted that they go more along the lines of what I posted. Gee seems like the true big breeders seem to think breeding under 18 months is fine. LOL. Oh well I feel like sometimes it isn't worth my time to post here. Too many people here this and that from big breeders and that is the only way. The UVB thing is just another example. People get so set in their ways that they don't like the idea of change. I know the things I recomend to be true from my experiences. Hey I have only been into herps for 3 years but I feel I am fairly knowledgeable, but still have lots to learn. But I like to share my thoughts but some can not accept them for that. I know I do a good job, little story that is kinda funny. I tend to sell of all of my dragons to a distributor. The guy that owns it and the second in charge got to know me last year. They loved my dragons. Told me they would buy them whenever I had them. They also give me what I ask for them pretty easily. It is nice and convient. Earlier this year I bring up a clutch. Owner isn't around second in charge is. He says he will take care of it. He is writing me a check for what I asked for. Another guy working there is sitting there looking over all the babies. Checking for missing tails and toes and so forth. Second in charge keeps telling him to not worry about it that they are good. The guy asks how old they are, I reply the god's honest truth and say two weeks. The guy is like no way. His next comment was that they all look good nice and fat. Some of them really fat. That is a fact that I take pride in. That I produce excellent quality babies. Oh and the mom was under 18 months old when breed. Oops my fault I screwed up those shouldn't be out there. I know I produce good dragons, therefor I think my methods are pretty good but some think my methods are dumb. Oh well guess I will go back to just reading posts and not adding much at all.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Considering mercury in the bulbs we use are under fire..
MERCURY BULBS

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TheClassyLizard

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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

(sorry kevin, i just can not stay quiet on this one)

I feel this study will amaze and shock everyone, and will not have any holes in it. I have seen preliminary results, but can not post them here at the request of the supplier

It will sure shock and amaze me, as it took us less than a year to prove with no holes in it this is not a fact. Try hanging out on a bearded dragon medical site for a month.

Hopefully he can type this report and not have to many broken fingers from the owners that were foolish enough to listen to this and follow it and are upset now.

Just today we got in 4 more dragons from a reptile breeder (geckos, and other reptiles, not bearded dragons) that was told this and believed it since it came from such a "knowledgable professional". They had excellent calcium dustings and vitamins, good salads and veggies, crickets and supers. Came from fairly nice parental lines and good bearded dragon breeders...... but, less than a year without UVB and the 2 - 2 year olds and 2 - 11 months olds are in serious trouble.

Tell me, why do you think so many of the lizard species only developed in the highest consistant UVB areas (not temps) in the world?

I hope your supplier does do some more in depth studies before making such a statement and having others parroting it to new people asking for advice, that end up with dragons that have problems.

We have an iguana we took in a age two, 2 years ago, broken toes because they were so weak, bad recessed upper jaw, soley due to lack of UVB, thanlfull 2 years in full Florida sun has brought her back a long ways. Same as several of the dragons we have taken in to tried and correct..... you can never undo the damage from lack of it, you can halt it and in some cases improve the appearence.

Sorry, this is one that I know is not so, and they are to precious to me to play russian roulette with their health... next time you want to mention those great breeders that endorse this..... ask them to see the records on how long these dragons that had no UVB lived and how well they did... better yet, go look at ones they raised this way and ask them to be able to announce their names here so the rest of us know who they are!

What sites are you talking about. This is not a study by a breeder. I use merc vapors on all of my dragons. Might switch over to Reptisun and flood bulbs. I will discuss further off site if you say will not post what I say. It may have been since disproved but it hasn't to my knowledge.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

you said:

Dragons do NOT need UVB. There will be results published in about a year on this subject. Then everyone will be saying oh we were wrong all along, or wait most probably won't be saying that as it is outside the one track thought proccess here. I feel this study will amaze and shock everyone, and will not have any holes in it. I have seen preliminary results, but can not post them here at the request of the supplier, but dragons can grow without uvb and still have good bone calcium.

I said Boloney.. reread the rest of what I said..... especially about hanging around one of the bearded dragon medical forums or list

I asked you for a link to such a site. I would be glad to.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

when i first read your message it seemed that you thought the study wass by a breeder. My fault I reread the post and my fault.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I'm curious as to why you're using Mercury Vapour bulbs (not that it's a bad thing, it's a GREAT thing, they're the best things for 'em) when you claim to have seen a report that says dragons don't need UVB AT ALL?

If they don't need UVB at all, then why go out and spend all that money on the biggest UVB providers out there?
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

They do not need it, but there is a benefit to having it I believe. One of which is color of dragons. The light they provide is much brigher. I also believe that brightness of light is good for appetite and vibrance.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

If brightness is your thing, and the UVB isn't important, why not just go down to home depot, get a 500 watt halogen? 10 bucks gets you the fixture two 500 watt lights.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

cause that would cook my dragons. The merc vapors are much brighter then lights that produce similar heat, and they have added benefit of the uvb.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Nah it wouldn't cook 'em, move it further away.

And according to what you say, the ONLY benefit of Mercury Vapour is YOURS. So they look pretty for you.

According to your top secret researcher, there are no health benefits from UVB exposure.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

No I stated that the researcher found that dragons do not need UVB. Let me clarify a little more on the findings. It was found that dragons raised with no exposure to UVB, be it natural or artificial, have blood levels of D3 that was sufficient to avoid development of MBD.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

And how about general growth, stamina and feeding habits?
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

Here is a quote from my post

They do not need it, but there is a benefit to having it

I did not say that the only benefit was mine. There is no question that they benefit from it. However is it absolutely needed NO. With all the misinformation out their provided by pet shops. And all the bulbs that are crap, and there are lots of them that are, if dragons absolutely needed UVB there would be many many more cases of MBD. It does happen, but not every case is from lack of UVB, the lack of active D3, insufficient calcium. There are many places that calcium absorption/blood levels can go awry. It is a very complex proccess that has many steps, and many hormones/protiens involved in sustaining proper blood levels. It isn't just have uvb, have enough calcium in the diet and you are good. Not even close. Lack of cholesterol can cause D3 issues. Thyroid issues can play a role. Poor husbandry with good UVB can lead to it. There are just way too many things that can lead to MBD, one of which is lack of UVB, but UVB is not the sole cause. It is just the easiest cause to point out. This is certainly something I can see that may have a genetic cause. Maybe some dragons are prone to it because after they are born or after some age the dragon stops all deposition of calcium to the bones. Something similar happens to human females. After age 25-30 there is no more deposition of calcium to the bones. This is why in the later years of life females are so prone to osteopersosis. Just because a dragon has MBD doesn't mean that it didn't have enough UVB, it could mean that. But the complexity of the physiology of blood calcium levels is very complex. And please stop misreading my posts.

Because I do not enjoy having people say that I say you can breed a dragon at any age. Or that I say dragons have no benefit by being exposed to UVB. I do not believe either of these. What it is that I do believe is that dragons can mature before 18 months. And also that a dragon can survive and thrive without UVB. It does happen, trust me. If you don't agree with me fine, but do NOT make me look like an idiot becuase you do not read my post or do not have the ability to comprehend what I am saying. It is a huge pet peeve of mine.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I think the UVB thing is also propagated because people that miscare for their dragons and have them wind up with MBD generally do not use good UVB producing lights. However I am pretty sure that dragons are prone to MBD because of genetics problems like inability to produce needed protiens or hormones (loads of them are needed) for the development of Active vitamnin D3, absorption of calcium, depostition of calcium into the bones, regulation of calcium in the blood, regulation of calcium uptake and storage by cells, and regulation of calcium excretion by the kidneys. Then there is a host of digestive issues that could play a role in the absorption of calcium. But if a dragon gets MBD, if it doesn't have UVB that is the cause that is most easily pointed out and blamed for the disease. I do not think such adhoc blame is deserved. If a person develops osteoperosis their is not one simple reason for it. Many Many things go into it, and it can take doctors many many tests to find the cause and some times they can't find the cause. Think osteoporosis is the equivalent of MBD in dragons. Just my thoughts on calcium and MBD there is no one cause even if the dragon had no UVB. Again it isn't a black and white thing.

No UVB does not equal MBD

UVB does not exclude possiblity of a dragon developing MBD

Biology is never cut and dry, it would be nice if it was but it isn't.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Are they old ones before they changed to not using any UVB to raise their dragons? Because in both of those pages of babies and breeders, there are UVB lights showing in the pictures?

Babies

Breeders

Sorry Cheri, Those are just plain old flourescent bulbs. If you don't believe me ask Vicki yourself. They are there for light intensity, not UV.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Kind of ...not clear. A person really can't determine what they are saying. "Ideally, use a UVB to assist in D3 manufacturing...but you don't have to"?

Quote:
Ideally a full spectrum light (Reptisun 5.0) should be suspended over the cage but is not vital... The bulb should be within 6-10 inches of the basking area, so they can absorb the UV-B to assist in manufacturing their vitamin D3 for bone formation. Once again, it is not vital AS LONG AS there is proper calcium/vitaminD3 supplementation in their diet and enough light intensity.
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TheClassyLizard

ctually I'm seeing Rob and Vicki on the 7th. I'll ask them if they feel that was wise advise to give to some body just getting into beardies. See what they say.
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Be my guest and ask them. I don't know why you would think their answer would be any different than what is written on their site. Is it possible for a "newbie" to read what they feel about whether UV is vital or not?
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

not this one again.

I've seen this debated just as azteclizard says, that UVB lights are not REQUIRED for a beardie to survive (avoid MBD, specifically).

Even if it's true, it seems that if you want to give your beardie the best possible chance to thrive, you might want to provide some overkill. I'll err on the side of caution (d3 a couple times a week a reptisun and a powersun in the same enclosure) just to be on the safe side.

It certainly can't *hurt* their disposition or their coloration to try and give them something resembling real sunlight, right?

a newbie may not recognize the signs of MBD..
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TheClassyLizard

Azteclizard you are trying to say you can get by doing it half assed, why spend the 20 bucks for a uvb light.
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comments to heart, please do some more research, there are list and forums composed of some of the most knowledgable medical people with bearded dragons and research available in the United States and Europe.

Vets that deal solely in exotics reptiles, authors of medical books that are considered the most expert in the country, teachers at veterinary school and experts the vets turn to for advice that have the opposite opinions are contributors to those lists and forums. These are people that spend their life in this field and see the results of poor advice to new people.

None of them would tell you to only put them under a household bulb and supplement calcium with VD3.... you can find them on the Internet search engine and put your question to those unquestionable experts.