Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,
I was just wondering if it's possible to overfeed a HL? Fluffy's appetite has been really high and she can't seem to get enough of anything. As of this week she's eating 10 ants a day and 6 small crickets every 3 days. I only ask because she's looking rather plump. I was under the impression that you should feed them until they stop eating, is that correct?

It is not unusual for a horned lizard to eat 50 or more ants at a setting. So actually this is not overfeeding at all. What specie is this? supplementing with samll crickets and small super worms are good, but ants are the ticket for maintaining good health.
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

She is a Short Horned Lizard. (p. Hernandesi Braconnieri, I think)

from this point of view hard to tell specie, as this also looks like a douglassi which are closely related. Hernandezi is harder to take care of in captivity and usually needs more water, was this found at a high elevation or semi-desert or desert? You might get a water dropper from any pet shop and put a bead of water on the lizards mouth or nose and see if he will lick it up. IF so I would do that twice a week or so to make sure it is hydrated. OPtionally spray plants and see what his reaction is. If this is Hernandezi then the higher temps over 100 for a basking spot is not necessary, but I still would have the hot side about 90-95 or so but the other end much cooler say 80. Was he found around leaf littler or pine needles or more gravel and grass and low bushes? I assume he's eating well? Has he taken in more ants? When you feed him very small crickets I would dust them at a minimum of twice a week as he is still young, but I woould be sure ants are the mainstay of his diet intake. Let me know.........
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

She (as far as i can tell) was found in the generator room of our mountain cabin in Colorado. It's over 10,000 ft. elevation, surrounded by sandstone, sand, and sagebrush. No trees of any kind nearby. She eats well, and enjoys mostly carpenter ants and small dusted crickets. We have a small succulant in her setup that we mist every other day, and i've often seen her licking the glass or leaves. She is very healthy, just getting a little fat is all. The other day she had to struggle to get atop her log (where she likes to rest during the afternoon sometimes). She had just gorged herself on ants and crickets and was seriously plump. I checked with the wildlife dept. there and they have 4 species of HL's listed as living in the area. Desert, Short horned, Round tail, and Texas.

a pic of the cranial profile would be better to determine. something from just above and behind in order to see the cranial horns. and the age of the lizard will make it more difficult. but this is likely a P. Hernandesi Hernandesi. Reduced occipital spines directed posteriorly, parallel with temporal spines. ( the horns on the back of the head are not as defined & point toward the back, parallel with the horns on top of the head. )

if it were a P. Douglasii, the temporal horns will point more vertically, and the occipital horns will point more to the outside.

no P. Hernandesi Braconnieri exists to my knowledge.
there is a P. Braconnieri, but it is rare, and, is native only to a few areas of Mexico.

P. Douglasii is reserved for the species found in the pacific northwest and Idaho, but, it may have reached as far as extreme western Colorado.

the new classification (Crother et. al., 2003. Zamudio et al. 1997 Systematic Biology 46 (2): 284-305) 2003 ) is toward the opinion that no _U.S._ subspecies between P. Hernandesi & P. Douglasii are recognized. that they are one or the other. ( variations too numerous to make sense of classification within numerous subspecies. )
all previous subspecies of P. Douglasii are now considered within P. Hernandesi. simply P. Hernandesi Hernandesi for all U.S. population Hernandesi, with the original P. Douglasii on it's own.
P. Douglasii Brachycercum ( Mexico ) is considered ( as of now ) only subspecies of P. Hernandesi.

both Hernandesi & Douglasii can be found at high elevation and are naturally o.k. with lower temps than other HL's.

fireside3@hotmail.com

I believe this is a douglassi as well as another friend of mine. The front nose on a Henandezi is different, but as you said a different picture view would help, and as far as Douglassi and Hernandezi being thrown into the same catagory, they can do what they want, but but there is a distinct difference in the two and anyone that handles horned lizards can see the difference not only in body shape in adults but scale configuration as well as horns. Douglassi has a varied and wide range and is also found at high elevations. I'm still leaning towards douglassi without a better picture.......
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

I didn't say anything about Douglasii & Hernandesi being "thrown into the same category". read again because I guess you didn't. I said they are considered two seperate & distinct species altogether. due to the difficulty herpetologists have in differentiating the numerous subspecies between the two, it was decided by herpetologists to reclassify
so that they two are _more seperate & distinct_. but hey, don't take my word for it...check with Sherbrooke's opinion on the ranges of Douglasii & Hernandesi.

http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/9297/identify.pdf

this makes identification of this lizard as Douglasii not very probable. actually even, I had mistaken it's range as extending even that far toward western Colorado. Douglasii's range extends to western Wyoming, not Colorado. it is Platyrhinos that extends to western Colorado. and, I would think that if you and your friend have already identified this youngster from one nose end only picture...you are really jumping to conclusions.

http://www.lifesci.utexas.edu/faculty/pianka/phryno.html
also illustrates known ranges. Douglasii doesn't come close.

http://coloherp.org/geo/species/spephhe.php
outlines known ranges of Hernandesi in Colorado.
additionally they only recognize Modestum, Cornutum, & Hernandesi as native to Colorado. it would be safe to include Platyrhinos I'm sure, but, I see Douglasii as a real unsubstantiated leap, especially based on one head on picture. this is the Colorado Herp. Society, so take it up with them.

http://coloherp.org/other/Colo-Ssp.php
Colorado Herpetological Society does not recognize subspecies either.

http://wildlife.state.co.us/regulations/ch10.pdf
on page 5. Colorado Dept. of Wildlife also lists only Modestum, Cornutum & Hernandesi.

this is who I get my info from. it is the herpetologists who do the classifications and distribution ranges I rely on.

"Douglassi has a varied and wide range and is also found at high elevations."
also, apparently, you did not read that I _did_ say specifically
_both_ Hernandesi & Douglasii are found at higher elevations.

"but but there is a distinct difference in the two and anyone that handles horned lizards can see the difference not only in body shape in adults but scale configuration as well as horns."

I "handle" horned lizards as well...and I am aware of differences in scales, horns, shape, etc., etc...which is why I
_specifically_ laid out the differences in clinical, unambiguous
terms. I did not merely state that there are "differences" and leave it at that.
you state that the "front nose" on a Hernandesi is different, but you did not illustrate in what way it is different as it relates to this picture. explain your work please.

this is not meant as a mean spirited attack.
But, I am thorough. so I would appreciate before you respond with critiques my message, that you actually read & comprehend it beforehand. then, if you choose to disagree, please respond with the same thoroughness so that the exchange may be benificial.

Mick Palermo
fireside3@hotmail.com

Well researched and presented. Keep up the good work.

Lester G. Milroy III
Conservation Biologist

Hi Lester,
Good to hear from you. Hope all is well with you and family.
How are your studies going this year? Anything interesting going on?
Hope you have a Happy Thanksgiving
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WWW.Phrynosoma.com

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signature edited; oversized graphic.

Edited on November 26, 2004 at 16:44:38 by phwyvern.

Your correct, I did misread your post, sorry for that--the guess was that this was douglassi on my part, and I did think there should be another shot from a different angle. I appreciate your response, it would be interesting to see this from a different angle, just looking at the nose shot it did not look like Hernandezi but agian that was my guess.....
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

By the way I don't take offense, as I said this was a guess on my part, some of the older books that I have including Hobart M. Smiths book put have a picture of a Douglassi in Colorado, I assume that would be west Colorado - however some of the work has not been totally dependable, again I can be taught and certianly appreciate your input and again this was a guess on my part - so there you are!!! Cheers!
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

I thought Douglassi also, because of a paper I found on the net about HL's. It said they could be found in utah, and in high mtn areas. It may hove been old, or just incorrect. But hey, it's no biggie! That's why I asked you guys! Thanks for the imput!
Sherry