Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hi all,

all this chatter concerning copulating couperi has me thinking ahead -- dangerous, i realize.

i have a pair (1.1) of 2002 red-chinned couperi bred by steve binnig. according to his permit info, his breeders came from robert seib. my plan (big surprize) is to breed these guys one day, but not to each other. is it a pipe dream to think that i'd be able to get an unrelated male or female for either one of these two? is there anyone out there with known-to-be-unrelated couperi?

i guess this goes back to OH's proposed stud book.

thanks,

matt

You may wish to attempt negotiating a trade with a zoological entity, as most cannot / will not sell excess genetic stock.
To find what zoological entities are working with D. couperi, simply check the ISIS website, as they maintain the most comprehensive data base worldwide, regarding specimens within zoological collections:

http://www.isis.org/joinisis/fundamentalsnew.asp

Don’t get discouraged, should your initial applications be met with negative results, as some zoological entities are less prone to deal with the public then others.

Good luck,

Jeff

"You may wish to attempt negotiating a trade with a zoological entity, as most cannot / will not sell excess genetic stock.
To find what zoological entities are working with D. couperi, simply check the ISIS website, as they maintain the most comprehensive data base worldwide, regarding specimens within zoological collections:
http://www.isis.org/joinisis/fundamentalsnew.asp
Don’t get discouraged, should your initial applications be met with negative results, as some zoological entities are less prone to deal with the public then others."

thanks for the suggestion jeff.

does this mean that everybody's couperi are related?

or does it mean that i'm treading on thin ice (as everyone clears their throats and turns the other way)? i've asked this question before in a different circle and the crowd fell silent, electronically averting their eyes.

(i'll bumble ahead...)

if there are not any known different lines, then is there a point to producing a stud book?

matt

My guess is that there really isn't a ton of diversity in captive collections.

doug T

>>
>>thanks for the suggestion jeff.

>>does this mean that everybody's couperi are related?
>>
>>or does it mean that i'm treading on thin ice (as everyone clears their throats and turns the other way)? i've asked this question before in a different circle and the crowd fell silent, electronically averting their eyes.
>>i'll bumble ahead...)
>>
>>if there are not any known different lines, then is there a point to producing a stud book?
>>
>>matt

"My guess is that there really isn't a ton of diversity in captive collections."

hey doug, this seems to be the general consensus.

still, it would be nice if we could take advantage of what little variability there is.

from a strictly genetic sense, it would be interesting to see how many generations have been produced, how many individuals make up the original gene pool, and how the captive "population" is doing as far as the appearance of any detrimental recessive alleles.

matt

I'm also guessing that there isn't a whole lot of information on the geneology of most indigos out there. Let's say "Breeder X" breeds indigos over the years and has a few different lines. Over the years, most of the folks that have animals from Breeder X are content that they are "Breeder X" stock.

For example, I work with Angolan Pythons. They also have an extremely limited initial stock. Casey Lazik has a group that might just be "most" of the initial stock in this country. Now folks are selling the offspring of the animals they bought from Casey and they are simply Lazik stock. He has 17 adults.

A studbook would be great, but personally, I think that the thing breeders could do to insure the most diversity is to make sure that they only sell healthy animals to serious breeders, that "iffy" animals only go to people wanting pets, and most importantly, that breeders share freely and generously all of the techniques used to get their indigos to reproduce.

If a breeder sells his animals and isn't super helpful in getting his clients to have equal success, he limits the contribution to the genepool that his animals could give.

As for worrying about inbreeding... that's worth an entirely separate thread.

Doug T

>>"My guess is that there really isn't a ton of diversity in captive collections."
>>
>>hey doug, this seems to be the general consensus.
>>
>>still, it would be nice if we could take advantage of what little variability there is.
>>
>>from a strictly genetic sense, it would be interesting to see how many generations have been produced, how many individuals make up the original gene pool, and how the captive "population" is doing as far as the appearance of any detrimental recessive alleles.
>>
>>matt

thanks doug. i see what you're saying.

i guess i was trying to get a hint on which direction to go (who should i be offering a deposit to) in looking for a companion for either member of my pair. i had it in my mind that i wouldn't put these two together.

maybe we should start a thread on inbreeding. what is happening and where are we going genetically?

matt

Ok... but it's a big can of squiggly worms... You open it

Doug T

>>maybe we should start a thread on inbreeding. what is happening and where are we going genetically?
>>
>>matt