Reptile & Amphibian Forums

albinos came out in 92, pieds in 97. i am wondering when we will be seeing a pied albino. youve had 7 years now, according to my clock they should be coming out any year now. thanks.

1 in 16......
long shot
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RicK @ BbI

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So is a "Snow" ball..., did that come out 2-3 years ago. What other double recessive are out there? How many combos with pied?

My thought...
How many dh for snows are for sale?
How many possible dh for snows are for sale?
Compared to dh pied/albino?
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

1 and 16 odds or not, it's never going to happen.
I don't think that the pied mutation is compatible
with the other mutations in trying to produce the final
product.

kind of like when the green patternless X laby burms didn't
turn out anything really.

Think about how many pieds Pete has ::: A Lot :::
he should have popped out something by now.

I hope I'm wrong, because an Albino Pied would rock!!!

Then there are the 1 in 4 odds if the pair are homogenous for one trait and het for the other...
...but what would i know
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2.15 Ball Pythons
0.1 Gray six toed cat

I find it pretty difficult to beleive that the piebald mutation is somehow incompatible with every other genetic mutation in ball pythons. To my knowledge there has only been one double recessive designer mutation in ball pythons, and that is the snowball. Pieds and het pieds are notoriously slow growers, so its not suprising they were not the first double recessive. I have seen double hets offered for sale, and if I remeber correctly Kevin Mcurly said thay have an albino pied project in the works at the Philly show, during the Q&a with Ralph Davis. Also Ralph Davis said that Pete Kahl will likely be producing piebald spiders this year. So we'll see.....
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-Dennis

oops.... Forgot about the caramel glow and the orange ghost albino, were there any other double recessives? The mutations in these crosses were all proven before pieds.
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-Dennis

Incompatibility is always possible when trying to combine mutations.

The mutations are basically mistakes in the snake's chemistry. Some may have no effect other than appearance but others might weaken the snake in some way. The combined effect of two mutations might be too much preventing the double homozygous eggs from surviving.

It is also possible that two mutations are on the same chromosome making them difficult to combine. There are only so many chromosomes and as the number of mutations grows we are sure to run into this eventually. You can make the double hets fine but the problem comes when you try to get both mutations on the same copy of that chromosome to allow more than two copies total of both mutations combined (you need 4 copies - 2 of each mutation - on the two chromosomes in order to produce a double homozygous). A crossover is required between the two mutations in order to make a copy of that chromosome with both mutations. If the mutations are close together on the same chromosome the crossover might not be very likely and you will just keep producing double hets and homozygous for each of the two mutations but no other combinations. I suspect that green and labyrinth in Burmese pythons might be on the same chromosome but information on the outcome of attempts to combine these two is hard to come by so I don’t know for sure.

It is also possible that one mutation will cover the expression of another. Even if it's genetically possible to produce a leucistic stripe you will not be able to tell that it's striped because the leucistic mutation removed the pigment that would create the striped pattern. Perhaps in the Burmese python example green (aka pattern less) just covers the labyrinth pattern.

I suspect that people just haven't been that interested in producing albino piebalds for long enough to have old enough double hets before now. One of the neat things about a piebald is the calico effect of the white contrasting against the black and orange in the "normal" areas. An albino pied might not be an improvement over a normal colored pied. I guess we'll just have to wait and see and even then of course it will be a matter of personal preference.

Albino/pied would be a waste of two nice morphs. I may be wrong, but I think it would be much less attractive than a regular pied.

I also think albino spiders are a waste of two nice morphs.

JMO,
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Chad Bachman

I'd have to agree with you. The neat thing about both pieds and spiders is the contrast and pattern. Bring the albino in and both get washed out. Both bred into other things like ghosts, and pastels and alike look real neat as the color and contrast both are 10X what they were! Anyways that's my opinion.
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John Light
Pristine Pythons
ristinePythons@Hotmail.com" target="_blank">Contact Me

This stuff takes WORK. Most of the people asking these types of questions normally don't even have these snakes in their collections to do this with and don't know the WORK that it takes to make something. First off the 1:16 odds but also the dedication and patience you need for it. If you think about it....you have to have the animals in the first place....then you have to get them raised up enough to breed. Then you run the chances of slugs, dead babies, etc. Then IF you get past that part...you then have to raise up THOSE babies to breed. Which with raising ball pythons...the people that don't have much think that breeders stuff just all of a sudden is breeding size as soon as it pops out the damn egg. It takes time...sometimes they just dont eat...so that sets you back...then just a slew of other problems can occur. Then you have to worry about the same thing once they are able to breed...will they breed?...are you gonna get good eggs from it?...are the babies gonna be alive when they hatch?...are the babies going to be what I want when they hatch?...remember 1:16 odds....hell odds are hard to hit with 1:2 odds sometimes! Also most big breeders have other projects going on where they can't just focus on a certain morph just to appease what a few people in the business want to see...but of course couldn't afford....
I say....if you want to see it...get the animals to produce it yourself...put forth the WORK and DEDICATION and PATIENCE to produce it yourself....and thats the only way that you can be assured that you will see the animal.....
If not....shut up and be patient....
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles

damn luke, you sure sound cranky. all i wanted to know is if they had been produced yet. 7 years from pieds just seem like there should be one out there. there sure are a lot of uptight people on the bp forum.