Reptile & Amphibian Forums

"Nothing happens in contradiction to nature, only to what we know of it."

Thought I'd share it here.

Thanks to HotRodHerps (Beardie Forum)...

Ian

Sounds like a plug for paying attention to what wild monitors do and why they do it, so we don't cross 'em up when they have to live "inside the box".

Monitors aren't smart enough to act much differently in captivity compared to how they act/live in the wild.

Sure, some of the dynamics are different, but monitors in captivity act very similarly to how they act in the wild.

This is why it took someone like FR, a student of animal behavior, to figure out what to make available to captive monitors in order to allow them to successfully breed and reproduce in captivity.

Everything that he gave them was very simple, once you understand it, he just happened to be the first person to really figure it out.

When you refer to people who have accomplished many more "firsts" than you have as "ignoranti" it makes you appear very small minded.

If what you measure "success" of knowing about monitor health, behavior, and necessities, is by reproductive output in captivity, I wonder what you are basing your own opinions on? or are you simply spewing out what Frank has said about his own animals...

I would think if you all knew exactly what monitors are about, what they need, and how they act, as you are claiming you do, all of you should have hatchling monitors running around by the hundreds, and seeing immeasurable "success". To my knowledge, this isn't the case, as most of you on this forum have not hatched out any monitors, and the majority of you out there who have, have been inconsistent at doing so....Where are all the baby monitors???

Anybody can sit at their computer and retype what Frank has said, but what is your proof, or evidence suggesting that you, yourself are right?? Where are your results???? I mean, after all, you can come here and bash personal observations and research that members of this here forum have made in the field...but what do you have to contribute, from your own observations in captivity...Keeping in mind, according to your own belief system, your observations don't mean a damn thing, unless you have produced generations upon generations of monitors...

So if all of what you are preaching is true about the needs of monitors, why is Frank the only one experiencing "success"???? What the hell are all of you doing wrong?? Where is your success, after all, you are so quick to disregard all of what is known regarding monitor's ecology and ethology? What are you doing wrong? Perhaps you should take a better look at what you are being fed, before swallowing....

Do enlighten me...
-----
TheOdatriad

I've hatched quite a few monitors using the husbandry methods Frank showed me by example. I hope the last sentence of your post wasn't suggesting he's lieing about his results.

At the time I hatched my first dumeril's clutch, the debate here was about basking temps. The scientific community told us we were going to kill our monitors using such high temps because of all the "scientific" papers documenting core temps of wild monitors being much lower. Well that hasn't happened, I still have the female that laid that clutch, she's been here about 8 years and has laid numerous clutches of eggs.
Doesn't mean the papers on core temps were wrong, just not applicable.

You see, science is wasted without application.

I guess you nailed it Rich in asserting that "You see, science is wasted without application." Unless science helps you breed monitors it's worthless, eh? Open your own mind an Angstrom, there's a whole 2 Angstrom-wide world for you to get confused in.

The application of science has afforded myself and my family a very good living. You could learn a thing or two from me.

At least you admit you are here for nothing more than a pissing contest.

I am one of the unsuccessful ones here. I seem to be getting good at taking sickly animals and getting them healthy. I did lose one though, mostly because I was too bull headed to ask for advise. I did what I though was best from literature and internet articles I read. Since losing that one my approach has changed. I will ask questions from people with more success and experience than myself.
Another, more recent screw up was with my gravid bosc.
I "thought" I had everything set up close to correct and didn't ask for advise until it was too late, she absorbed the eggs. Why did she absorb and not lay? I dunno but am trying hard to figure it out. Hell, my wife claims I spend more times doing (in her words) "Lizard stuff" than anything else.
I am not trying to breed for profit and have no idea what I would do with all the babies. I just know that she was gravid and absorbed instead of laying. I my opinion, a healthy female will lay, not absorb. Now it is my job to figure out what she needs.
I read Sams post but haven't found anything useful to my poor lizards in their boxes.
I send the link to your site to everyone I hear of that buys a tree monitor.
Why do I send them to you and not Sam? Simple answer, you have experience in keeping trees healthy and alive.

Scott
-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

"Monitors aren't smart enough to act much differently in captivity compared to how they act/live in the wild... Sure, some of the dynamics are different, but monitors in captivity act very similarly to how they act in the wild."

I'd feel happier if you prefaced these statements with "in my opinion". I presume you've spent a lot of time watching wild monitors to come up with these statements? If so, please tell us a bit about it so we know what you are basing your opinion on.

This has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and I'm not about to enter the debate/argument/slingfest about it once again, but let's just summarise it by saying that not everyone would agree with you that wild and captive monitors behave the same way. It isn't a matter of how smart they are, but the options available to them. Wild monitors have choices not available to captives (huge amounts of space with numerous choices of basking/roosting sites, mates etc), captives have luxuries not available to wild monitors (consistent food source, consistent access to heat etc). My personal opinion is that these choices affect their behaviour.

It is all about options.

If you give captive monitors the options that they need, they will thrive and reproduce in a box.

Up until FR came along, nobody was giving the monitors all the appropriate options that they needed.

Once you know what these options are, they all appear very simple. Lotsa Dirt, food, heat and proper moisture and most monitors will thrive. If you do not provide these simple options, they will not thrive and only rarely reproduce.

The academics and zoo people that I watched keep monitors over the last 3 decades were not providing the proper dosage of options to their monitors and then told people that monitors were difficult or impossible to breed in captivity.