Reptile & Amphibian Forums

superhypo tangerine carrottail x albino giant

this is what i like to do next year!
what will be produce ,all het albino ???

then breed there babies the follwing year

http://www.geckosetc.com/htm/genetics.htm
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Brian Skibinski
Brian@MilwaukeeReptiles.com
www.MilwaukeeReptiles.com
Leopard Gecko Care Sheet

you're right- all of the babies would be hets. and a lot of people would breed their babies the following year. however, it is my opinion that it's not ethical to produce babies that inbred (e.g., babies from siblings). the incidence of physical problems present in inbred leos is much, much greater. some common examples include tail kinks and eyelid deformities. others, almost as common, but less discussed, include blindness, limb deformities, complete absence of eyes, and a bunch of other things.
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marla
currently: 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, 2.8.2 leopard geckoes, 0.0.15 oriental fire-bellied toads, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

Its unethical ti breed sibs???? There is nothing wrong with it as long as it is not over done..... In the wild there will be a fair amount of inbreeding..... It is natural in the animal world..... It is immoral in the human world, however, leos are not human...... It is fine to inbreed a few generations..... If there was no inbreeding you would not have the variety of morphs we have now..... In the wild there is a thing called locality spacific recessive..... That is where a population of whatever species of animal all have a recessive gene that takes over the regular wild type gene and becomes the dominant color phase or morph in that particular area..... Now this would not be possible if there was no inbreeding going on within that population......

what can i say, i disagree. and i know all about population genetics, i wrote my undergrad thesis on pop bio in axolotls. and i think that it is unethical to to have sibship breedings in a hobby that is going to get overcrowded with sub-standard specimens. i don't really feel like it's debatable, it's a matter of ethics. quick gain versus outbreeding. you can have a genetically stronger line, or you can be the first guy to have the new 'whatever' morph. economics favor one method, i favor another. leopard geckoes in the hobby are clearly suffering from inbreeding depression, in my opinion, and so i'm not going to perpetuate that by buying from breeders that do it, or by inbreeding my own stock.
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marla
currently: 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, 2.8.3 leopard geckoes, 0.0.13 oriental fire-bellied toads, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

so what would the hatchlings of the first mating be ,would they be 50/50 giant noraml colour/pattern ??

what if then the babies breed the following year ?

thanks

no. the offspring of the first pairing would all be heterozygous for albino (and maybe giant, if this is a simple dom/rec triat, i don't personally know), with maybe a little more orange than a normal gecko. and i don't think you should breed the offspring to each other. instead, spend a little more money, and buy another albino giant & super hypo tangerine carrottail from another breeder, or at least from different bloodlines. then breed these second geckoes as well. then breed the offspring from these two pairings to each other, instead of breeding siblings. the offspring would be 25% albino (giant), 50% heterozygous for albino (i.e., carrying the genes), and 25% normal. there would not be a way for you to tell the 50% from the 25%, as they would both look normal (i.e., not albino). there are a lot of people doing these sort of breeding projects, though.
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marla
currently: 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, 2.8.3 leopard geckoes, 0.0.13 oriental fire-bellied toads, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

i think i am right in saying the giant is co dom, so would that not mean 50 % will be giant in the first mating shtct to albino giant ?

oh god... *strains to remember genetics lectures* i think that, technically, co-dom means that it is just, like, a normal trait. like, eh, if a person with dark skin has a baby with white skin, the baby has medium skin. the other definition i'm thinking of wouldn't really make sense in this context, so it think that must be it... so, i guess, giants are just really abnormally large, and will influence their offspring to be larger?
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marla
currently: 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, 2.8.3 leopard geckoes, 0.0.13 oriental fire-bellied toads, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

ok so ,would that mean that there really not true genic morphs as such,but more line breed ,ie big to big= hopefully big babies/adult

i think so... but i really don't know about giants. i don't have any, haven't seen any in person, so i'm not really the one to ask. but if i've got my definitions right, and that's what co-dom means, and the giant thing is a codom trait, that would make the babies bigger than most.
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marla
currently: 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, 2.8.3 leopard geckoes, 0.0.13 oriental fire-bellied toads, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

There is no way that you can attribute all of those deformities to the inbreeding of leopard geckos for one, or two, generations. Although I do not do it, as I am about to get out of leopard geckos, but those deformities could have various causes that are not just due to inbreeding. Examples being:

- a calcium deficiency in the mother during mating and carrying the eggs.

- low or unstable temperature gradients during incubation.

- an actual genetic predisposition to throw certain deformities, no matter whether or not it is with a gecko from the same clutch. Thus the reason it is "unethical" to breed animals with tailkinks and deformed eyelids.

and lastly

- a weak bloodline that is caused by many, many generations of interbreeding. I have read in numerous books and websites that it would take somewhere between 5-10 generations of inbreeding in humans to cause even subtle deformities. (Someone correct me in this if I am wrong).

A side note: I do not condone inbreeding of animals as I think there are enough bloodlines in the united states to satisfy everyone's breeding projects, but I also do not flame people for thinking about inbreeding. This is just my opinion.
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Josh Ellis
My Email
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thats kool josh its your opinion,
i just wanted the theroy on it,
i do have other leo s to mix in to for outcrossing ,etc but

i think the first mating will bring all het for albino, but will the babies be normal looking ?will the tangerine/carrot make an appearance ?

i dont think they will,but hence why i am asking,also on the first batch would any of them be giant ?

i think they'll be half-way in between a normal and a superhypo tangerine carrottail in terms of color, and half-way between a normal and a giant in terms of size. like, on average, you always get variation. so, that would be, if the whole 'giant' thing is actually co-dominant, and i'm right about the definition of co-dominant.
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marla
currently: 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, 2.8.3 leopard geckoes, 0.0.13 oriental fire-bellied toads, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

you're incorrect about the inbreeding with regards to humans- it takes only one generation of cousins inbreeding to dramatically increase mental and physical deformities. wherever you read that is a totally bogus source of information. i have watched the hobby for a while, and it is my opinion that the deformities are largely due to small genetic pool. i say that because of a bunch of personal experience with inbreeding vs. calcium deficiencies in firebellied toads (i work in a pop bio lab). it is in the interest of the people who practice inbreeding to attribute any flaws to other causes, so they can continue to stay on top & get the most spectacular looking animals without geting branded unethical. i'm not trying to say it's a conspiracy, it's just the way things are. kind of like how so many animals (for almost any species kept as pets) are sold to clearly unqualified morons to keep the hobby going.
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marla
currently: 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, 2.8.3 leopard geckoes, 0.0.13 oriental fire-bellied toads, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders