Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Obviously, most of the people coming to this site would like to learn about monitors. Specifically, the vast majority of people coming to this site would like to learn more about appropriate husbandry and breeding of monitors. Currently, very few people on earth understand how to properly care for and breed monitors.

30 years ago, very few people could breed colubrids and today colubrids make up an ample segment of the global pet industry without impacting wild populations in the slightest.

Breeding monitors could be a far larger industry than it is today, but it will require better equipment and better dissemination of workable knowledge to reach this goal. We need to make it easy enough that anyone who is willing to spend their time appropriately will be able to share in the wonders of successfully breeding monitors in captivity.

We could all argue about who really knows more about lizards, but this won't help further the growth of the science of herpetoculture.

It is to my understanding now, more than ever before, that the majority of people on this forum, or at least the ones arguing against the current biological/ecological understanding of monitors, is that the number one drive in this hobby for you, is to breed monitors. Heck, after all, this is all that you refer back to time and time again.. In your last post, you mentioned "breeding monitors" about five or six times, not to mention you claiming that there is a potential for a significant market=$$

Not everybody who comes here to this forum has the same ambitions and drive as you. Not everybody is in it to breed monitors... Some people who come here don't even keep any monitors, but are just intrigued by them.

This further supports the fact that you guys(the "herpetoculturists", have totally different intentions/interests in this hobby(or is it a business???) than the "Herpetologists". Just like the horticulturists and botanists... The "MS's" could care less about breeding animals, or how many generations of CB babies you can produce... Again, different values/views/approaches...

Now myself, I do not know exactly where I stand, however I can tell you that I am not $$$$ driven, as I keep my animals for the love of watching and interracting with one another. I personally enjoy reading historical accounts of varanids in the wild, and their interractions with the fauna and flora surrounding them, as well as interractions with native people, as well as collecting photos. Breeding is not my drive, it is merely something that happens/might happen along the lines of keeping them/having fun with them... Not my goal or motivation for being interested in varanids..

Thanks for the comment, it's good to see where we stand in our differing opinions on our own involvement/interest/motivation in this hobby(or was it bu$ine$$?).

Cheers,

bob
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TheOdatriad

The dollar is a great motivator.

Thirty plus years ago we watched the birth of herpetoculture.

In the beginning it was a race between two very different forces.

The zoos and the private sector.

The zoos were very interested in learning to breed reptiles in captivity and even hand out special awards to recognize accomplishments in the field of the captive reproduction of herps. Unfortunately for the zoo keepers, their pay did not increase when they were successful at producing babies, hence, the motivation was just not there.

The private sector enjoys rewards for successful husbandry and receives a monetary "punishment" when their husbandry techniques are found to be inadequate.

Today, the zoos have taken the backseat to the private sector and it doesn't appear as if they will ever make up the lost ground.

If Komodos were made legal for the private sector, babies would be $500 dollars each within a decade or two as the normal rules of supply and demand would control the marketplace.

First I will thank you very much, please give me your hatchlings, or give them all away, but whatever you do DO NOT SELL THEM, EVER

Second and far more important, The captive support that allows monitors to do what they are designed to do(reproduce) Yes, sir, that is their design, This support is not related to whether your intentions are to sell your babies, make money(profit), or pay for food an electric(break even), or simply give them away. The husbandry is the same. Maybe some will work harder and do it longer, if they receive compensation.

Would you like to discuss whether monitors are normally suppose to reproduce or do they only do it for money?

I do wonder if Sam would do his studies without funding?????? What do you think?

Bringing up the money card is below you, and disappoints me. I really thought you were a bit smarter then that.

I have to wonder, why you would think selling offspring is bad, is it to get the sympathy vote, hahahahahahahaha. Because sir, it really has nothing to do with husbandry. FR

Frank,

I did not say anywhere in my post that it was evil or bad to sell offspring, or even make a profit off of it. I never said that I would never sell any offspring. Heck, if you get all these hatchlings, what the hell are you going to do with them? Of course it would be nice to have a hobby pay for itself, or even turn a profit.

The feeling I get with many people who seriously "get involved" with the hobby(not just monitors, -snakes, lizards, turtles, etc..) is that most people are in it to make out, and turn a quick profit, where the thought of making thousands of dollars from breeding reptiles quickly overtakes the simply joy of keeping and caring for them. That is what I see with a lot of crabby people who post here... all they see is dollar signs- not all, but some.

I am by no means against you or your business, as you have proven to be successful, and have put many years into your work. I respect that, whether our thoughts or opinions on issues differ. My arguement is about the many of the people here who are fueled to buy/keep monitors with the thoughts of breeding their animals and making money... Why are so monitor before in their life?? . many people buying groups of 1.4, when they have never even kept a monitor before in their lives?? Why get 5, when you can start out with 2 and go from there??? Greed..

I am not saying there are not people who do this for the love of keeping them; I know that if it wasn't your passion for your animals, you would not have had the success of breeding captive monitors as you have had. Many people here are in it for the fun and love. However, as I pointed out, many of the people who come here have the attitudes of making big money, and skip the fun or enjoyment part.

That is what I was posting about. Of course animals are designed to breed, I never denied that. With proper husbandry, babies should ensue... never denied that either...

All I am trying to say is that people should keep monitors for the love of doing so, not the dollar potential. Scientists do not study/keep monitors/animals to make money, heck, they sure as hell don't make much money performing the studies that they do.I would think that they do perform the research and studies because they have a fondness for the animals they are studying. That is my arguement...

Again, the "herpetoculturists" differ in ambitions than "herpetologists".. and then there are people that lay in between(i guess that's where I belong?)

cheers, sorry for the confusion...

bob
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TheOdatriad

Greed is good. What could be more fantastic in life than to be able to turn your hobby and your passion into a business.

How many people really love their jobs?

Trust me Mr. Tree Lizard, if you are ever able to repeatedly produce baby tree monitors and you can find a market for the babies, you, like many of us will begin to think about turning your hobby into a business.

It is easy for you to say that dollars don't motivate you because up until now, your hobby has only consumed money and not produced any. The first time someone hands you 50 or 100 Benjamin Franklins for some baby monitors, you will be looking at your life in a whole new way.

If it wasn't for money and selling babies, the science of herpetoculture would not be anywhere near as evolved as it is today.

If you are able to achieve the success to allow you to perform a business, or make money, that's great. I am not discrediting that. I simply stated that the majority of people who are "deep" into this hobby, are coming from a standpoint of making money...and not enjoying what they are doing first... But instead, it's work work work, right off the bad to try and breed these animals, when you are not experiencing any enjoyment out of them.

If the day should ever come that I have excess babies, then yes, I would probably sell some, and/or give them to zoological institutions. Making money off a hobby isn't a crime, nor am I against it. It is the mentality of wanting to make money over the enjoyment aspect..

It is all too often that we see people get into monitors, buy a group of them, they do not see any immediate success in breeding them, so they quickly get discouraged and sell their animals. It happens all too frequently. You can't deny that this doesn't happen....

People with the attitudes of "I am going to make big bucks breeding monitors", are most likely not to succeed. It is the people who put their heart and soul into their animals, and really enjoy what they are doing, that will in fact breed their animals, and be "successful".
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TheOdatriad

I do not know of any making money(lots) off breeding monitors, not even Rare Earth, from our conversations, he still has several million to catch up on, to break even. He is the only commerial breeder I know of.

Who are you referring too. To are kinda being like sam, saying stuff, without any backing.

I know lots of people start out wanting to make back their investment, and then hope to make some money. But is that a problem.

Lots of nice people call me looking for monitors. I normally ask, what their intent is. Sometimes they answer with, I want to make money. In these cases, I refer them to a species that have a history and protocal of success, like ackies. Its really not my job or yours to judge them. If it was, I would be out in front of petshops sniping a Sav buyers, they kill more monitors then anyone except hide farms.

It should be clear and understood, individual people are allowed to acquire monitors, for whatever reason they want. Just like you are.

Your approach of letting the monitors become healthy before trying to breed them is a very good decision. But I do ask, how many people make good decisions? Why aren't you concerned with everyone who is making bad decisions, like all those people buying fords? FR

Hey frank,

I think you were thinking that I was referring to commercial breeders as being "deep into the hobby", which was not the case. I was referring to the keepers who are 'deep' into the hobby, meaning those that are aware of, and know where to purchase the not so common monitors, other than savs and niles.. I wasn't talking about commercial breeders, or trying to talk about yourself or your busines. I'm sorry if you took it that way.
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TheOdatriad

The question is, what difference does it make? its still about the husbandry. If the husbandry is not met, then there is no business, there is no quick profit.

There are people in all walks of life that are only for the quick buck. The case here with monitors, they are here to today and gone tomorrow. The reason is simple, it takes work.

The question remains the same, what happens to the offspring is of no concern to what allows them to be made.

If you want to play the "natural card" Then what happens to wild monitor babies??? Does that effect what causes the female to successfully breed? Is not the intent for wild babies to die? To support the ecosystem? What does that mean, to support the ecosystem?

What causes wild female monitors to cycle and breed? What support to they get to successfully develop eggs and nest?

Now for the ringer question, Does the MS's have any concept or any evidence of any of this? Do any of their papers deal with this? Or do they simply say, they are solitary and hide alot? Thank you FR

This is indeed the most entertaining forum I read....lots of bickering, everyone trying to "one up" the other, everyone trying to "spew" their vast knowledge of an animal that though we do breed successfully, we still know little about (in terms of interactions in the wild....but we have come a long way)....okay, we have learned much in recent years so no need to start a debate (i am not even looking for anyone to respond to this); just thinking out loud which is always a dangerous thing.

Seriously, folks, it has been probably 6 months since I last poked in or contributed and nothing has changed....wonderful soap opera!

As a curator of a very successful wildlife center, and a private hobbyist, that keeps monitors and LOVES monitors, it would be nice to be able to see everyone a bit more civilized towards one another. I don't get nearly the same feel as the comaraderie that one sees in forums such as the Indigo Forum, GTP, Gila, BP and a few others.

There are some folks here who have made MAJOR strides in the field of varanid herpetoculture and husbandry; I have nothing but the utmost of respect for their achievements. There are some folks whose interest are more academic and perhaps are more concerned with behavioral ecology or some other similar track. They have no doubt made major contributions in their own right and I love nothing more than to hear accounts of observations of wild monitors by these people. Knowledge is power.

I also see some wonderful people who just want to learn as much as they can so that they can give their beloved monitor the best life that they can. Sure, we anthropomorphize these animals and so what, they are OUR responsibility and they are for our enjoyment as long as we have taken the responsibility in bringing them into our homes. We should have fun with them.

My facility keeps monitors for education and exhibit purposes; I do the same at home. Would we like to get into breeding? Heck yeah, but my primary efforts are on Drymarchon couperi, gilas and a few crotalines. Someday, I would love to spend more efforts in breeding these magnificent creatures.

So, why do I really come here besides entertainment? Well, I have learned much from this forum and have appreciated feedback that people have given me when I had questions. the dialogue can be very stimulating and at a high level...on occasion. It sure would be nice to see a certain level of respect and commaraderie within this group....but I doubt that will happen anytime soon.

Just my pointless .02.

Rob Carmichael, Curator (and HOBBYIST)
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

I come to learn any new info or techniques associated with monitor husbandry so I can apply them to my Sav I care for, and also share the joy of keeping one of these amazing critters.

If it isnt learning better husbandry learning more from each other and exchanging there own success and understanding then what else is it? Monitors are not for profit there a money pit, Beardies,Geckos,Colubrids,etc... are much easier and a profit can be made there. Why choose Varanids for profit? My goal was to breed, met that, my goal was to get fertile eggs, got that. And what I thought was final was to hatch the fertile eggs, still trying with very limited success. Now if I hatch more its for raising them up to do it all over again! Then and only then I might have a clue to what they need and require for a healthy life and life cycle(breeding).If I get extra yes I would sell the extra but that will be far from a profit or profitable as I have put more money in then I could ever think of getting back.Heck Frank probably makes more money off his mice then his monitor sales! I have learned alot from him and I have also had alot of help from Mark and Sam as well. I dont care who is arguing with who, or who is right or who is wrong. all i care about is what I can learn to better my care for what I keep and learn and pass on my mistakes. if you dont keep Varanids for the love of learning and keeping them then you wont keep them long and you wont be on this forum long either. I have learned alot but it wasnt from reading a bickering post. I have been doing this a long time and dont post here much at all too much about each other and not enough about the subject.. And if you post you should have your name at the end or dont bother posting!
Robert

NP

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

I dont keep pairs of monitors, yet I use the husbandry techniques from my monitors on a pair of beardies that wont stop laying eggs (over 175 eggs in 9 months), in fact I have disposed of so many clutches by feeding them off to other animals or throwing them away, I dont really want to deal with all those hatchlings. I kept one male hatchling thats now larger than his mother and hes only 7.5 months old. All of my animals are pets, all but one (Asian wolf spider) are very handeable, and very friendly except to certain people by their own choice. Even Sobek does not like some people at all.
A few of the same people like to mention that I post alot of updates on my animals, pictures of them, sizes, growth, weight, ages, etc but Im very proud of them. Besides, I get to see this every day and they dont.

No, I dont keep monitors in pairs, but my lizards grow so big, so fast, and so young. Even my older animals obtained from others grow fast under my care, so Im obviously doing more than a few things right. Who wouldnt be proud of raising a hatchling of any monitor species to the largest male or female ever known of period, and the animal is still under 3 years old.