Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A couple days ago, I was looking around the King forum, and there was a big noise because someone posted a pic of a king eating a corn. Someone else posted saying that they were offended because they owned a corn snake in addition to their king, and it kind of turned into a debate, though it started getting a little off topic. But some people were saying it's natural and others cruel, and etc.

While I wasn't particularly happy about that pic, I'm sort of resilient in that it's virtually impossible to offend me unless someone either attacks me personally, or gets really racist. But I was curious as to whether corn owners on this forum think they would be offended by a pic of a kingsnake eating a corn snake in captivity (for reasons other than the imminent death of the corn by natural causes anyway, i.e. for the "fun" of it - as far as I could tell, that's why it was done). From reading posts, I gather that there are lots of responsible, humane keepers here, so I'd like to hear from some of them on this topic. Is it offensive to anyone?

>>A couple days ago, I was looking around the King forum, and there was a big noise because someone posted a pic of a king eating a corn. Someone else posted saying that they were offended because they owned a corn snake in addition to their king, and it kind of turned into a debate, though it started getting a little off topic. But some people were saying it's natural and others cruel, and etc.
>>
>>While I wasn't particularly happy about that pic, I'm sort of resilient in that it's virtually impossible to offend me unless someone either attacks me personally, or gets really racist. But I was curious as to whether corn owners on this forum think they would be offended by a pic of a kingsnake eating a corn snake in captivity (for reasons other than the imminent death of the corn by natural causes anyway, i.e. for the "fun" of it - as far as I could tell, that's why it was done). From reading posts, I gather that there are lots of responsible, humane keepers here, so I'd like to hear from some of them on this topic. Is it offensive to anyone?

well, I have actually fed a corn snake to a king snake so I can't really say it is wrong. In my case it was a corn that had died within a couple of hours of birth. There were actually several that a friend froze. I had a freshly caught king snake that didn't want to take mice so I tried one of the corns. The king snake ate it. For the next feeding I used another of the hatchling corns but this time just cut the tail off and put it in a mouse's mouth. This worked and after that the king changed over to mice without problems.
Now, I would never feed a live healthy corn to a king. I couldn't do it.
But to feed a king snake a natural prey item, such as a corn snake, in and of itself is not ethically wrong.
We like corn snakes. Some people like mice and rats. You know what I mean?
It would also appear that this picture was shown on the king snake forum where such a photo would be appropriate.
It would be in bad taste on the corn snake forum but since it wasn't posted here, once again I can't see anything wrong with it.
It was kind of unclear in one part of your post...do you feel the corn was fed to the king just out of fun or was it a dead corn and an opportune meal for the king?
oh well
I guess that is about all I can think of at this time

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

The person who posted it mentioned *LATER* that it was two nonfeeders... he was trying to get the non-feeder king to eat, and tried tempting with a non-feeder corn. Tactic worked. Instead of having both snakes die of starvation, he saved one by sacrificing the other.

It's the thought of feeding a healthy snake to another healthy snake who doesn't NEED to eat a snake that mostly offended... and the fact that the picture was posted without any commentary to explain why we were seeing that exact picture. Later commentary, if it had been added to the initial photo, would have removed most of the negative-squeamish-postings.... there's always some who will object when a member their favorite pet species is fed to another person's pet, and don't understand later when someone who's favorite pet is a mouse get's upset. But there ya go.

I, too, have fed a non-feeder corn to a non-feeder king.... he ate, the corn was saved a lingering death, and life went on.
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~Sasheena

Feeding snakes to snakes does not necessarily have to be a bad thing. From my point of view, there are plenty of very common and readily abundant native species that can be used as feeders, if desired. Garter Snakes, Ribbon Snakes, Water snakes, racers to name a few. If you consider the high birthrate and widespread distribution. Of course, there are certainly herpers out there who prize these species and will disagree. The prudent thing, I think, would be to not post pictures of snakes getting killed on a Snake Lover Website. Nothing breaks a snake lovers' heart more than seeing dead and/or dying snakes! IMHO.

I wouldn't be offended by such a photo but I do think there is something wrong with someone who would do such a thing purely for entertainment.
I will tell you that I find it fascinating to watch a snake capture its prey, kill it, and consume it but I don't feed my snakes live animals. I prefer that mice are humanely killed and frozen. I am entertained by my snakes behavior and beauty not by watching them kill things.

Well, the guy who posted the pic claimed that both were non-feeders, but several people seemed to think that it was just a malicious thing because he didn't say that until it turned into a problem.

I personally wouldn't do it, but I don't know what to think about others doing it. I guess I would hope that they had their reasons, but would probably kind of cringe if the corn wasn't going to die from natural causes.

But it does make me a little sad because it makes me think of my Corns, and how much personality they have...but this is also the argument you will hear from people who keep rodents as pets. I just hope the person didn't do it for entertainment....

Take care, Chris O
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

Seriously, just because we are corn snake/rat snaake people we think they are so much more special than say a spider that you squish every day...a cockroach you swat with a shoe...a fly you hit with a flyswatter...a lizard you may feed to your snake....that mouse you feed to your snake. This really goes back to the whole ethical issue of the sanctity of life... keep alive what we like and screw the rest. I mean come on, we're out there killing all these things... bees and flies and spiders - they're pests. Pigs, chickens, cattle - we're hungry. Lions and Tigers - It's fun! And we even kill other people - because they're pests. (And some demented people may say fun also!)

Thats why I personally find the whole "sanctity of life" to be 100% Grade A BS. People get upset seeing a snake get eaten by another snake, rather it be live or frozen, however other people get upset seeing a mouse or rat get eaten by a snake! I have a pet mouse...i dont breed though, i buy frozen...but this mouse has more personality than some of my snakes do! I raised him from a baby, he will sit on my shoulder and let me walk around, i'll feed him something every now and then... every now and then i'll bring him to my lab class and it will curl up in my lab coat pocket and fall asleep! So you cant tell me that just because a corn has a personality that it shouldnt be prey - mice have just as much of a personality as a snake does! Now i'm not dissing my snakes or anything i love them...but I love my mouse also.

i'm just sick of seeing people saying its unethical to feed something that would naturally be eaten in the wild as prey. In the wild kingsnakes do commonly eat other snakes. They may eat mice, rats, or whatever they happen to find.

So would I feed a live cornsnake to a kingsnake? No. However I wouldn't feed a live mouse to a cornsnake or kingsnake either.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
1.1 Texas Bairds (Jose and Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Caligula)... coming soon

It's their natural prey, who says it's up to OUR ethics to decide if a snake can consume it's natural prey. Nature intended it so why mess with it?

Sounds like we have another Carlin fan here...

Joe bless you,
Robert

I have to say, being an individual who has owned and loved Mice, Rats and Snakes, that I would not be offended by the picture if it was done for feeding pupouses. If the guy was just into the death struggle, that is a little sick. But even if it was a healthy corn snake who could have been a happy pet, it doesn't nececerily make feeding it to the King unethical, unless all of us are being unethical every time we feed our pets, and, incedentaly, ourselves. I have met some cows with great personalities and some pigs who were smarter than some people I know. But it doesn't seem any more wrong to feed a Snake another snake than to feed it a live mouse or rat that could have learned to come when called and sit up and beg (as 2 of my feeder turned pet rats did). Their probably is no clear answer to the question however. Someone will always be offended by something,

Why would some one feed an unwanted (or otherwise) cornsnake for pleasure? I dunno....i think that if the case were that the corn was unhealthy or if it were bred for a feeder and the king would not eat otherwise, i guess i would personally have no problem. The problem i have (and the rule in my house) is that i never feed an animal to another if it is other wise healthy and has known human love and companionship. I dont think it is right to feed an animal to another if it has known love from a person. My feeling is that that particular animal comes to expect kindness and love, and that it is wrong to engrave such thoughts into an animal (any animal....) that is going to be fed to another. Some people feel other wise, but that is just my opinion.

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"Brains for dinner, brains for lunch. Brains for breakfast, brains for brunch. Brains for every single meal; why can't we have some GUTS?"-Misfits

1.0 ball python- Azazel
1.0 columbian boa- Brooklyn
1.0 red blood python-Hiss
1.0 peach phase thayeri-Sancho
0.1 creamsicle corn- Pandora
0.1 partial stripe ghost corn- Raven
1.0 Sunglow motley corn-Ernie
1.1 hognose- Pricilla and Odd
0.0.1 smooth green snake- Raziel
0.1 russian tortoise- Manja
1.0 juvie red phase crested- Ichi
0.2 leos- Boji and Kodama
0.1 beardie- Indie
1.0 BTS- Griffon
0.1 Iggy- Sunny
0.0.1 gray tree frog toadlet
4.3 bettas
0.1 pacific parrolet- Mishka
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
2.3 ratties Rizzo, Bree, Blitzkreig, kaos, and Takashi

Um, Crtoon83, you forgot to put quotation marks around all the George Carlin material from "Jammin' in New York" you used in the body of your post. lol

Well, like I said, it's pretty difficult to offend me, and that picture certainly isn't enough to do it. It did, however, occur to me that there are holes in the "it's natural" argument. I mean, in nature, the corn at least has a chance to get away, or to keep altogether away from the king, whereas putting them in together in an inescapable enclosure just to get out of buying a mouse is another thing altogether. But then that applies to a live mouse, too. Plus, if we decide to call frozen mouse products cruel, then we have to condemn that whole industry, which only exists because of us. And, of course, it's not that there's a concrete answer somewhere in the universe, but it seems to say something about a person when he/she is offended by something, or when they enjoy cruelty. I think these are all good, well considered, interesting answers, though.

I have a pic of a retic eating a dog.Imagine the grief I would get posting that.Kings eat other snakes and corns can be bought pretty cheap in lots.Maybe the king was wildcaught and wouldnt eat mammals.It's like I tell my wife and kids(Dont fall in love with the food.)...Paul

If it was a non-feeding hatchling that was destined to die anyway, then I wouldn't be offended by the act of feeding it to the King. Better that than waste the precious resources used by the female Corn in producing the egg in the first place.

Wouldn't want to see a pic of it though. And thinking about it, I have one lone non-feeding hatchling and a Kingsnake and I'm not about to feed junior to the big guy.

So... my rational thoughts and feelings conflict on this one - bit of a grey area for me.

It's each to their own I guess. As long as the Corn didn't suffer, then it's the lesser of two evils.

...
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

/

I've done the same thing with a reptile-only feeding FL king and a non-feeding corn. And in all honesty, it was truly fascinating to watch that little king swallow a corn that was a good inch longer than it. So, even if it was out of curiosity, I see nothing wrong with it. Certainly not cruel as that is still part of the natural cycle of life and death. If I had a prized king cobra (known snake eaters) or king snake that would eat nothing but other snakes, would I go out and buy a big lot of garters or waters or *gasp* corns to keep it alive until I could get it switched over? You bet, in a heart beat. Just like I have to resort to feeding live mice to stubborn feeders, sometimes for months or years until they make the switch to f/t. Here's another one for all the ethically challenged, I used to keep retics and when they get big they eat rabbits. No way around it. Sometimes, I could not get frozen ones and had to buy live ones and kill them myself. THAT was a tough one, because they were usually being sold as pets and as a kid, I kept bunnies as pets. BUT I still had to do the necessary thing to keep my snakes fed and healthy. It's a tough one, but the fact is, many animals eat other animals. Kinda like some vegetarians spewing about eating meat or anything with eyes, etc. and they're wearing leather.......

>>A couple days ago, I was looking around the King forum, and there was a big noise because someone posted a pic of a king eating a corn. Someone else posted saying that they were offended because they owned a corn snake in addition to their king, and it kind of turned into a debate, though it started getting a little off topic. But some people were saying it's natural and others cruel, and etc.
>>
>>While I wasn't particularly happy about that pic, I'm sort of resilient in that it's virtually impossible to offend me unless someone either attacks me personally, or gets really racist. But I was curious as to whether corn owners on this forum think they would be offended by a pic of a kingsnake eating a corn snake in captivity (for reasons other than the imminent death of the corn by natural causes anyway, i.e. for the "fun" of it - as far as I could tell, that's why it was done). From reading posts, I gather that there are lots of responsible, humane keepers here, so I'd like to hear from some of them on this topic. Is it offensive to anyone?

...why? It was posted on the Kingsnake forum. If it were posted over here on the Cornsnake forum, I'd have a problem with it, as then it could be construed as intending to inflame people, but since it was posted over in the Kingsnake forum, who cares?

It's a fact of life that kings will eat other snakes, and a fact of life that corns eat mice... It's unlikely that anyone here would have a problem with a pic of a corn eating a mouse, but post that over on a Mouse Enthusiast-type forum, and you'd be up in arms. To turn the argument on its head, if a mouse enthusiast visited the Cornsnake forum, and saw a pic of a corn eating, would you consider them justified in being upset?

TBH, I see no reason to get upset over someone feeding a corn to another snake, especially since he wasn't going around shoving the pic in us corn-people's faces. Then again, maybe I'm biased? I've fed kinked and non-feeder corns to kings before, and it's just as fascinating to watch them eat as it is to watch a corn down their food.

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

they can do what they want.....

......better to use deformed or totally nonfeeding corns for that ...but..whatever they want.....they can do.....

.....fed a whole lot of corns to baby king cobras around here.......

.........oh..and my cal kings and some others never would eat a corn or a garter.....tried more than once as an experiment.......

......I think they liked the playmate......
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Any one who is offended should think about 5min longer and bite their tongue. There are rat and mice shows where special breeds are distributed and shown, kinda like a reptile swap etc. And the human affection post is lame. I dont think any animal truly loves us besides maybe a dog or a cat. People feed their snakes rabbits, guinea pigs, rats, mice, geckos, and other snakes! Herps eat other animals thats why most of us got interested in them. So before you go bashing a pic with a king eating a corn, go through all the forums and bash the people feeding mice, rats, geckos, etc! my 2 cents

Jack

Saying that is offensive is saying that you value a snakes life over, say, a rodents. I had rats as pets when I was younger, they were great, but snakes have to eat. A kingsnake in the wild is much more likely to eat another snake than a rat or a mouse. Let it go corn owners, it's the food chain.

I would not be offended by the photo. However, I feel like such a photo is not a good thing to share in a forum. I keep both king snakes and corns and enjoy breeding both snakes. I would hate to see one of my kings get a hold on one of my corns. I have an escapee mtn king thats been out for atleast two weeks. Before the king escaped I had a not-so-careful snake sitter let an amel motley get out. I'm a little worried about the corn. I think there is wide range of sensitivities to issues like the king-eat-corn photo. I think the crux of the issue is whether or not it was neccesary to feed the corn to the king. Feeding mice and pinks to our snakes is neccesary. Feeding a corn to a king is not neccesary. I think some pet lovers would be upset to see a corn like theirs eaten up by a hungry king. There are many situations in life where we need to be aware of the people around us and their feelings. There could be some new participants of forums, like me, that could be turned away from the forum by pics like that being discussed. Discetion should move us to not includ such pics in the forums. Feeding a king with a corn snake is not neccesary. While important in the context of educational scenarios, in a discussion forum for snake breeders, I think it is of bad taste. Sorry about grammer etc. Its getting late and I'm tired.

Stephen fron Scaly Babies

ujibhou

I personally have both corn snakes and king snakes. I must say that both show extreme personality as with all animals. I would not feed a corn snake to a kingsnake simply to watch it eat one. However I do not find it ethically wrong as a kingsnake would naturally consume a corn snake in the wild. If you think about it, feeding live mice would be the same thing on most counts. Multiple rat/mouse keepers find these animals entertaining, just as us herpers find our snakes entertaining. Either way I would not personally do it, however feel no defensive in it.

It is to me. Why would someone feed a live healthy corn to a king. That is just wrong.

While I prefer not to see it, I have to say I have no problem with it provided it's necessary to the kings survival. I donate my non-feeders to a locale reptile store to use as "bowties" to get thier cobras to eat. They're frozen first not tied on live and I only give them to them when I'm totally sure I'll never get them to eat. But they are necessary to get those cobras to eat. Just my thoughts.

Cheryl

first they were both non eatters and i just tried a pink on that lil eastern and he refused again.i also thought it to be educational i just read a post on ks about keeping multi snakes together
new dilema i was given by a breeder friend a snow male brooks born 9/5/04 it has eaten 2 anoles for me ,and i have a kinked baby corn.?
do i go and catch a healthy wild anole in my backyard or feed the king a deformed corn snake, not a Hitler thing, but we should strive not to breed deformed captive animals as to insure healthy CORN stock for the future. all for now, Chris

I was always under the impression that some cobra keepers use other snakes, such as corn snakes, as prey/food occasionally for neonate cobras.

I see no difference in feeding anoles to non-pinkie eating corns as hatchlings. I wonder why it stirred up such debate. Maybe the way it was initially presented? I don't know and don't really care b/c everyone has an opinion one way or the other on issues like this...

Its like politics and religion...don't bring them up unless you're looking for controversy and debate b/c some people can't handle mature conversations that could be informative and educational.
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Sincerely,
Jason
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My Website:
www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes

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Let's face the facts: We are all keepers of wild animals. Even though most of our corn snakes and kingsnakes have been captive bred for generations and generations, they are still wild animals (however docile they may be), and by no means domesticated.

So, we keep wild animals in captivity. Our duty is to provide these animals with the best care and enrichment as possible. Part of that responsibility is to model the WILD animal's wild environment as closely as possible. If that means feeding a kingsnake a diet more varied than frozen/thawed rodents every week, so be it. It may be hard for us, as snake lovers, to watch another snake being eaten, but that is what would happen in the wild. After taking these beautiful animals out of the wild, who are we to deprive them of the prey items that they would naturally consume.

I am by no means proposing feeding corn snakes to kingsnakes on a regular basis, but to be outraged by the idea is absurd.

Wusstig

1.1 Corn snake
0.1 Albino Cal. King

I have to say that as reptile owners, which I assume anyone in these forums are, there shouldn't be any reason that this is an issue. Snakes are carnivores but more importantly the are opportunistic feeders. In the wild they would eat corn snakes, dogs, cats, and even people if they have the chance. If this guy wanted to feed his corn snake to his king it is his business. Some people keep them as pets, so what? Some people keep chickens as pets too but how many of you are giving up KFC? The point is it is the "circle of life" not some malicious killing. The snake needed to eat he fed it end of story. Stop making people feel bad about helping their pets to thrive. Trust me the snake was not wasted. If the picture bothers any of you dont look at it. Nobody said owning reptiles was a clean business but I can tell you through years of owning them, its an enjoyable one.

On the above comment, about snakes being opportunistic feeders, it says snakes will eat people if given the chance. Just to specify, the only snakes known to have eaten people are reticulated pythons and they still do not see people as a food source. I thought I should add that just in case any non-herpers were reading this.

retics african rock pythons and anacondas have all been known to eat people and burmese have killed people. They did see them as a food source or they would not have eaten them. Snakes don't see us or other snakes as a higher life form to avoid eating. also if you don't think snakes look at people as a food source, let me ask you this , whould you leave a baby alone with any adult boid of considerable size?

I would just like to say thanks for proving a point

That's interesting. I don't own snakes, I was here for the lizard forum, but I thought I'd reply to this.

Ok, first of all, vipergeck0, don't say that nothing other then a dog or a cat loves a person. Roxy, one of my bunnies, will leap up on your lap and lick you, then then nudge you hand for petting.

I don't think that feeding a DEAD corn snake to a king snake is unethical, but I'm totally against feeding ANY live animal to a snake. Most animals feel terror. Mice, rats, snakes... anything. Can you imagine how horrifing it would be to be locked in a glass box, and then see a giant snake coming toward you? Simply for that fact, I wouldn't feed a live animal to another animal. In nature (and I'm talking about snakes), the predatory snake will attack something by complete surprise, the prey animal never knew what hit it. Of course, there are exceptions, but the majority of the time that's the case. So locking the poor snake in a box with the king was (in my opinion) a nasty thing to do. Now, if the King would only eat reptiles, and the corn wouldn't eat, I would have killed the corn and then fed it.

As far as people getting mad because of this picture, I can see why, but those people never took the time to go think it through. After all, if you put a picture of a snake killing a mouse on a mouse board, they'd go wild. The people who got mad because the corn snake was fed to the other snake weren't thinking about rats, for instance. How many rats are fed alive to snakes everyday, I wonder? Rast are intellegent (mine are trained to "sit pretty" and "bang", are affectionate and definatley feel emotcions. One of my rats got so lonely that she lost all the fur on her shoulders and wouldn't eat. I bought some new rats, and she went back to normal. So, in their minds (and anyone who disagrees with the feeding of a *dead* corn snake) how is it Ok to kill something that is almost as smart and affectionate as a dog and not ok to kill a snake (and I know they aren't vegetables, but I don't think they're as smart as mammals)?

After reading all of the posts to this I just had to say something.

I totally agree with everybody on it's a natural thing and nobody should be offended. Don't fall in love with the food was one of my favorite responses. I see nothing wrong with feeding your snake/lizard anything it will or needs to eat to keep it healthy. This includes rabbits, chickens, rats, mice, and if need be other snakes. The thing I don't agree with is posting a picture of it. I really don't like opening a post to find a picture of a snake or a lizard with its dinner half way eaten. I don't see the point of it. I know it is interesting to people who have never seen it before. I just don't want to see it when I am trying to see what great looking snakes everybody has. To me this is kind of like posting your wife's picture on the internet chowing down on a big ole greasy cheeseburger for the world to see how beautiful she is!!! I don't care how gorgeous she is it ain't a pretty picture.

O.K. I'm off my soapbox for the evening. Hope everybody had a great thanksgiving dinner, just don't send me any pictures of it. LOL
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Joe

"Life is a banquet and most poor fools are starving to death"

1.2 Amel Motleys het Snow
0.1 Snow Motley
1.1 Emory Rats het Albino
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1.1 Taiwan Beauties
0.0.3 Yellow Ackies
and a Partridge in a pear tree
actually he's a Blue & Gold Macaw

Personally I don't think I'd post the picture myself because I know it would more or less incite a riot.

However, someone else posting it wouldn't offend me in the least. How can we take offense to a corn snake being eaten by its natural predator and yet post plenty of pics of snakes eating rodents? There are thousands of people who keep pet rodents and we don't worry about offending them.

Much less humane than snake-eat-snake is the reptile treatment I see with many of the rescues our rescue org deals with. Folks neglect their reptiles all together for weeks or months at a time. One girl told me she didn't know if her snake was dead but she didn't want to open the cage to find out because she was afraid of it (who knows how long it had been left in its cage to die). To me, that's the reptile treatment we need to be concerned about.
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

Is it really any different than the way people feel about us feeding mice or rats? The people who own mice and rats think its horribly cruel, and that there should be other alternatives to feeding mammals to our pets. Nobody likes to think of their pets as food.

I personally think pets are pets and food is food. If you stick to this philosophy, it just makes life simpler, especially when you're taking something someone else thinks is a valuable pet and reducing it to nothing more than meat.