Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Herpetology simply means the study of herps(reptiles and anphibs) period. If any person is studying herps, then thats herpetology. If any person whos active in herpetoculture, studys them, then they too are envolved in herpetology. What do you call a person with a masters in evolutionary biology(herps) and works at a zoo, that breeds and sells reptiles? They do exsist you know.
Many many publications in scientific journals are based on work done in herpetoculture. Mostly with other types of reptiles. Yes even with monitors, For instance, Retes and bennett, Horn and everybody, Bern Eiddenmuller and everybody. Etc. Of did you forget much of their work came from captive breedings and then they sold the offspring.

Now surely your not saying only a degree means you can do herpetology? because if you are, I would take those leaves out of your lacie cages. Because as you know, I discovered Lacies use and nest in leaflitter. I did that thru herpetoculture, I studied them, so its herpetology too. IF you remember, you wondered where I was going to get termite mounds to nest my lacies in(information that came from science)Thank You. FR

I didn't say that herpetology and herpetoculture were unconnected. In fact, I did say that many herpetologists are also herpetoculturists and many herpetoculturists are herpetologists, so your mentioning herpetologists working in zoos is a repeat of what I have already said. What I am debating is hunu's statement that herpetoculture is herpetology or even a subset of it. Sometimes they overlap (herpetologist that keeps reptiles etc) but that doesn't make one a subset of another.

For example, if I wanted to study herpetology, I'd go to a university biology department and study zoology. Herpetology is a subset (branch) of zoology, which is a subset (branch) of biology. There wouldn't be any courses on herpetoculture, for they'd be held by an institution that teaches animal husbandry. Herpetoculture is a subset (branch) of animal husbandry.

One needn't be educated or professional to be a herpetologist, there are many excellent amateur herpetologists. Some of them are even herpetoculturists, too. Not all herpetoculturists are herpetologists (think of little Annie around the corner who keeps a single ball python called Nancy, but has no interest in the behaviours/ecology/evolution of reptiles). If herpetoculture were a subset of herpetology, all herpetoculturists would be herpetologists.

As far as this statement goes: "IF you remember, you wondered where I was going to get termite mounds to nest my lacies in(information that came from science)"

I do remember that conversation very clearly, except the way I remember it YOU asked ME where you would get termite mounds from if you were to follow the information that came from science, because you were being sceptical about how a thesis I had on lace monitor reproduction would be helpful to keepers.

"Now surely your not saying only a degree means you can do herpetology? because if you are, I would take those leaves out of your lacie cages. Because as you know, I discovered Lacies use and nest in leaflitter. I did that thru herpetoculture, I studied them, so its herpetology too."

What you 'discovered'* is that lace monitors in captive conditions nest in leaf litter. That's herpetoculture. Even if you published it, it would be in a herpetoculture publication for the benefit of other herpetoculturists who keep this species. Similarly, if you discovered that they preferred tupperware over rubbermaid containers to drink from, or nest in, or one was better than the other for incubating eggs.

However, if you were in Australia and discovered that wild lace monitors nested in leaf litter, that would be a contribution to herpetology.

*you weren't the first to discover that lace monitors will nest in leaf litter in captivity, by the way. There were many people breeding them here in Oz before you got yours and some that I know have had theirs lay eggs in leaf litter. My female has yet to lay in leaf litter, for so far she prefers a nest box designed to simulate the conditions in a termite mound, information I gleened from a paper written by a herpetologist

First how odd is it that we do say a lot of the same things, I wonder if it has to do with we are doing a lot of the same things? Scary hey?

Ok, is varanid reproductive biology, herpetology, or is it herpetoculture? Or better yet, do you think the biology of reproduction in varanids, is different in nature, compared to captivity?

About how they nested, I did mention, they used other types of nesting then termite mounds. and yours did what? Thank you, FR

Of course a lot of what we talk about will be similar, we both keep monitors, both of us are interested in both herpetoculture and herpetology. However, the fact that many of the people on this forum don't like reading about wild monitors and keep insisting it is a captive monitor forum only shows that herpetoculture isn't a subset of herpetology.

Reproductive biology is herpetology, but techniques for getting them to breed in captivity is herpetoculture. Studying what they do in the wild, or even those things they do in captivity that simulate what they do in the wild would be herpetology.

As far as lace monitors nesting in termite mounds, we have discussed that they may nest in something other than termite mounds in the wild (in the north of their range, anyway, for the eggs wouldn't stand a chance without an active termite mound down here) but so far there's been nothing but anecdotal evidence to show for this. I've yet to see anything concrete published. I've not only seen much published about them nesting in termite mounds, but have spoken to many many people who have seen nesting, or found eggs and have seen termite mounds with goanna activity myself.

No, my female hasn't nested in a termite mound, for there are no termite mounds in my loungeroom. She did, however, nest in a box with conditions simulating a termite mound. That's herpetoculture for you.

I probly shouldn't even say anything since I have not worked with lacies yet alone studied them in the wild. But I am gonna say it anyways haha

I am just wondering you say it is written of them using termite mounds. You also say people tell you they find them there. With little no no evidence of other places. Now me thinking in my little brain. I say there has to be an awful lot of termite mounds in order for every female to be able to use them for nesting with no other choices. One other thought it's probly much easier to spot a termite mound then it is other forms of nesting, leaf litter, or buried in the dirt.

But as i said I have not been there nor have I worked with them. You have them your there you tell me.

That's a fair assumption, Jody, and the visibility of termite mounds vs other nesting sites is often mentioned.

Numerous factors would convince me they use termite mounds in the south of their range, but one is overwhelming and that is temperature.

Lace monitor eggs overwinter. The temperature around here drops well below the level a monitor egg can withstand. Even those laid in termite mounds have been shown to die if the termites die midwinter. Where else would a lace monitor lay its eggs and be assured of reasonable temperatures right through winter? Leaf litter doesn't cut it and before you start mentioning rotting vegetation, try to imagine how inconsistent that would be in terms of 1. finding a mound of rotting vegetation large enough 2. finding one that maintains a reasonable temperature range through a 10 month incubation.

Hey thanks for the change in talk. The battles are getting overwhelming.

I want to talk monitors for awhile. So since your talking , you get to be stuck with me haha

Alright that was a good point about cooler temps.

What is the termite mound constructed of? Why does it stay any warmer then being underground? I have only seen pictures so my study and knowledge of them is very limited.

Termite mounds are constructed of termite spit, reinforced with the wood particles and debris they chew up. They have the consistency of sandstone but can feel like concrete after a hot spell. There is a thick outer wall, often difficult to break through even with a mattock. Inside is honeycombing, called 'carton', which is where the termites live. They keep the environment warm and humid in there, opening vents when it gets too hot and sealing them when it cools off. When monitors lay eggs in the centre cavity, in the carton, the termites actually partially cover the eggs with carton material, making them a permanent fixture of the mound.

It takes a monitor a fair while to dig through the mound, but if they find the mound to be dead when they reach the carton, they appear to abandon it. I have found a couple of dead mounds dug to carton level, then suddenly stopping. Of course, if the mounds were living the hole would be quickly patched up by the termites, but still visible because the outer wall has a different colour when freshly constructed (it's slightly wet, therefore darker). Monitor diggings are fairly distinctive, too high up, small and round for echidnas.

I had photos of live mounds with monitor activity on my photoisland account (and was about to post them), but it appears it is now defunct

Interesting to hear of how they are constructed. I have only seen pictures of the mounds not the inners.

Yes my photisland account is gone too, luckily I switched to dotphoto. Check it out, you can put as many pictures as you like on it. Just for some reason not everyone can see the pictures.