Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was at petco today buying cichlid food and as always I swung by the herp section to see what poor beasts they were trying to sell this week. I was surprised to find some cresteds (looked about 3-4 months old by size). Their tank had nothing but a silk plant, an almost empty water dish and a dish full of meal worms. They have temp/humid gages in each cage and this one read 89/25. I asked the "sales associate" for a care sheet to see what it said on there and he gave me one for anoles and one for leopard geckos and told me to feed it like a leopard and cage it half way between the two. I was very dissapointed (not that I expected something better). I pointed out to the manager (I knew her from undergrad or else I don't know if I would have been the "difficult" customer) that the cage settings were incorrect and she said that all the cages in the unit had to be the same, but it was okay because they weren't dead. The 3 they had were wadded in a ball in the silk plant. Do any chain petstores treat their "items" appropriately? I wish that our wonderful cillies weren't turning into the next disposable pet.
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2.2 cresteds
0.1 tibetan frog eyed gecko
0.1 gargoyle
1.1 bubble gum corns
1.2 W. Hognoses
1.1 blue bar ambanjas
1.1 red foots
1.0 sulcata
0.1 leopard tort
Want to know about vet school? go to www.vmth.ucdavis.edu

Petco has always been bad about keeping reptiles...nothing new. There's a post about this (Cresteds at Petco) every couple weeks.

Just FYI, Cresteds actually hang on branches (wadded up in a ball) in the wild.

>>I was at petco today buying cichlid food and as always I swung by the herp section to see what poor beasts they were trying to sell this week. I was surprised to find some cresteds (looked about 3-4 months old by size). Their tank had nothing but a silk plant, an almost empty water dish and a dish full of meal worms. They have temp/humid gages in each cage and this one read 89/25. I asked the "sales associate" for a care sheet to see what it said on there and he gave me one for anoles and one for leopard geckos and told me to feed it like a leopard and cage it half way between the two. I was very dissapointed (not that I expected something better). I pointed out to the manager (I knew her from undergrad or else I don't know if I would have been the "difficult" customer) that the cage settings were incorrect and she said that all the cages in the unit had to be the same, but it was okay because they weren't dead. The 3 they had were wadded in a ball in the silk plant. Do any chain petstores treat their "items" appropriately? I wish that our wonderful cillies weren't turning into the next disposable pet.
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>>2.2 cresteds
>>0.1 tibetan frog eyed gecko
>>0.1 gargoyle
>>1.1 bubble gum corns
>>1.2 W. Hognoses
>>1.1 blue bar ambanjas
>>1.1 red foots
>>1.0 sulcata
>>0.1 leopard tort
>>Want to know about vet school? go to www.vmth.ucdavis.edu
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

They were bunched together which normally isn't normal behavior for animals that are hyperthermic

>>They were bunched together which normally isn't normal behavior for animals that are hyperthermic

I see my cresteds bunched together on occasion and never really thought anything of it. I guess I better start watching out for that.

What does "hyperthermic" mean, if you don't mind my asking?

-Anthony
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

Ok let me start by saying I am a former employee for the lumbering corpirate gaint known as Petco.
My time there was uh um well not very fun to say the least. Lets see how did it go, oh yeah well I was really broke and needed a job and figured ahhh Petco they'll hire me, after all I probablly know more than there entire staff combined. Well I got the job and soon staked out the reptiles all for myself. Upon taking on the project I noticed a few things. At least 50% of all the rep's didn't even have temp gauges or humidity gauges. Of all of those who did at least half of them did not have heat bulbs of any watt. Not to mention the substrate was all wrong and the cages were overflowed with crickets probablly gnawing on my preciouse lizards all day long on my time off. The nocturnal animales were fed during the day (that's even against pollicy) Oh and the former reptile "specialist" was a fullblown crackhead (literally)!! The aboreal tanks were given to the ball pythons and hmmm lets see I was told repeatable that they had ordered bulbs six months ago and nothing has come. That all geckos were to be kept at the same temp and humidity (leopards & Cresteds). Males are kept together in numerouse cages. (And I've worked at two locations)Oh and they pay crappy. I could just go on and on but hell isn't this enough. I rufuse to buy anything from the store that's motto is "Where the pets come first" and yet no one really cares at all. Id'e rather pay a little more for a lighter heart.

i have to disagree with you, yes some PETCOS do treat there animals in this way but it is up to us as customers and just as people to teach them not to. I currently work at a PETCO and we do not do any of the above you mentioned. If you were in charge of reptiles as you say then why didnt you move the ball pythons or any reptile that wasnt in the proper place, for the most part if you state your case very well, they will listen. As far as the Crested being kept in higher temps, that is that stores mistake, they definitely do need to be aware of it but I dont want everyone to think that all Petcos are like this. We keep our crested geckos in the amphibian section, temps there get no higher than 82. There are a lot of very knowledgeable petco employees, you just have to find them, I guess that is a bad thing but they are out there. For you to not stand up to management and not change things was wrong on your part, as stated above they do listen most of the time.

i would say in my experience less than 5% of petstores i have been to ( including petco) have researched and done the work they need to do for their animals to be kept in adequate conditions.
the petland here in iowa city has had 2 out of 6 employees in the past 5 years that i can remember that actually try to treat their animals well.
i even witnessed one of them spray 3 adult mellars chameleons for over 20 minutes straight to rehydrate them. he did this every night. just one of the few examples of how some do what they can. but the owners of the stores do infact limit the amount one can help the animals.
some want to help, some want to just get by and make the money.

most of the owners dont want to spend the money to use store product to setup the animals properly, especially large corporations.

PETCO had huge issues in California, they are the main reason pet stores now have to hand out care sheets with every animal purchase, PETCO is a horrible pet store chain, I have NEVER been to one that was nice.

I am probably going to make a few enemies by saying this...sorry in advance whoever I offend. (breeders)

In reading past posts, I think 95% of us agree that major pet stores do not take care of thier animals.

They seem to provide thier animals the care that only thier "cheap" budget will allow. It seems they only strive to keep animals alive long enough for them to be purchased.

If they had to accomidate each species of reptile to thier "normal" habitat...that would cost a lot of money. OH NO!! WE CAN'T DO THAT!!!

That being said, it is no surprise that Petstores choose to neglect thier animals. So, my question is...why are there some "respectable" breeders out there that choose to sell thier cresteds to these A-holes??? I'm not naming names...you know who you are. I am shocked and appauled that these breeders will spend so much time and effort on these creatures just to send them off to thier death.

It's just frustrating!!! Especially when you get those blank stares!!!

You know how the petstores treat thier animals. Yet, you continue to sell them for a profit, does your greed have any limits?! It's wrong and you know it.

And for people to sit there and defend these petstores with one freaking story of... "oh that's not true...I work at Petco and I care" DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT THE CORPORATE LEVEL AT THESE MAJOR PET STORES WILL LISTEN??? Or just automatically say, "Oh, you're right. We will gladly spend the extra hundred thousand dollars a year so all our store can properly care for these reptiles...we're sorry, what were we thinking?"

It just amazes me how a person can exploit living things for thier own pocket...shame on you!

Every thing you said i agree with. but just because ive never had the chance to shake my head at u like u do me... HA HA whos shaking NOW ! lol DAVE

All I have to say is that if I spent so much time and care into something...I'm not just going to turn around and destroy it. It's wrong in my opinion.

Sorry

i understand u, just like every one else we all agree. Problem isnt me you and ever other joe in here spending our time helping each other and trying to learn more about our animals we enjoy.
The problem is the suit and tie kicking back on his yacht drinking his martini probably using a 100 bill as a coaster and dumping his trash in the ocean. you and me we save our coins to obtain just one reptile the suit and tie that owns it, Dont even know what it is... and if it was loose in his house he'd probably scream like a girl and call the exterminator. these people own these chains because they dont care not like back in the day when the lil guy had a pet store and he cared and enjoyed what he did thats why he went into that type of bussiness because i know first hand with all the expense's theres not a whole lot of profit in it, Just enough to keep u going. know i am poor and i have bought from the big guys but id pay the extra money to bye from the lil guys, thing is not to many of us can afford to take that stand.
either way i have now vented and i am off to go decorate the girlfriends house for her birthday before she comes home talk to you all tommorrow
Dave

Unfortunately dave...it's not Petco my "beef" is with. My issue is the breeders that sell thier animals to these big companies. Petco is Petco...or any other corp america. Is money that important to them?

I'm actually unclear which is worse . . . the way they treat their animals or the way they treat their employees.

They hired me to run their Aquatics section once . . . I quit after one day. What made me most angry was I was responsible for 30 tanks and hundreds of animals, and could be censored for anything that went wrong . . .and yet I had no power to CHANGE anything, even when their 'system' was just plain wrong. Why hire someone who actually knows fish if you won't let them do her job? And, oh, yes, they treated me like some 16-year-old know-nothing crack-smoking moron . . . and then claimed they wanted my expertise.

The employees have one advantage over the animals . . . people can tell Petco to go shove it.

By the way, hello!
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Porter

Reptiles
1.0 Crested Gecko (Tort)

Fish
2.0 Oscars
2.1 Polypterus
0.0.5 Angels
0.0.1 Dusky Jawfish (Golum)
and many more . . .

Mammals
1.1 Alley Cats
0.1 Rat
0.1 Chinchilla
1.0 Degu
1.0 Boyfriend (Mike)

. . . is what I get when I decide to mow the lawn in the middle of the day in July.

It is resolved with a Corona and a little twist of lime . . .
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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
Email

dislectics off tha wrold untie!!

i looked it up in a few online dictionaries and it doesnt seem to exist. there is hypothermic, which is an abnormally low body temperature but i dont think thats what you meant to say.

cresteds bundling up together or hanging in ball like forms is not at all uncommon, i have seen large groups of young ones that are perfectly healthy that sleep together all coiled up, i think they just prefer the security.

Hyperthermic means hot body temp. It's more applicable to use in reptiles since they aren't really febrile (have a fever) but rather have an elevated body temperature due to their surroundings. The word is easily found in saunder's veterinary dictionary.
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2.2 cresteds
0.1 tibetan frog eyed gecko
0.1 gargoyle
1.1 bubble gum corns
1.2 W. Hognoses
1.1 blue bar ambanjas
1.1 red foots
1.0 sulcata
0.1 leopard tort
Want to know about vet school? go to www.vmth.ucdavis.edu

considering these animals are nocturnal i dont find it at all unusual for them to be huddled together sleeping during the day. i dont see what the concern was?

i have seen babies huddled together a lot, with perfectly fine conditions, i dont think it means there is a problem.

thats what i didnt understand by you saying hyperthermic, you were either implying they were huddled together because they were cold, or that something was wrong. But hyperthermic means warm so obviously that wasnt an issue of being cold, there MIGHT have been something wrong, but I wouldnt say for sure, its completely possible they were just huddled together resting.

hey i got a issue... see i enjoy coming here reading stuff you all have to say but ehhh if you all keep using words with more than 2 or 3 sylabols ( spelled that wrong im sure lmao) i am going to be breaking out the dictionary. Can we keep it simple for the knuckle heads like me ha ha ha
Dave

Sorry for the big words. Funny thing is I get made fun of all the time in vet school for not using big technical words.
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2.2 cresteds
0.1 tibetan frog eyed gecko
0.1 gargoyle
1.1 bubble gum corns
1.2 W. Hognoses
1.1 blue bar ambanjas
1.1 red foots
1.0 sulcata
0.1 leopard tort
Want to know about vet school? go to www.vmth.ucdavis.edu

The term as you used it below seemed to describe the normal thermal state of the geckos and abnormal behavior:

“They were bunched together which normally isn't normal behavior for animals that are hypothermic”

..in affect you used the description without providing clear and direct context; that causes confusion to the readers here.

While I gather that the temp reading you took from the stick-on thermometer was 89F, it doesn’t necessarily mean that gecko’s themselves were too hot (I.e. the thermometer could have been in at a “hot spot” in the cage). (rightfully). I think you made good observations, may have but drew too many conclusions from them. Perhaps further investigation would have been a better course of action and would have provided a more complete picture of the situation.
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-Randy May
www.neoscales.com
Email Me

ha ha excellent post! you should think about getting yourself one of thoose judge judy type shows lol

I'm on vacation and sick as a dog. Here's a fixed copy for clarity of my own
_______________________________________
The term as you used it below seemed to describe the normal thermal state of the geckos and abnormal behavior:

“They were bunched together which normally isn't normal behavior for animals that are hypothermic”

..in effect you used the description without providing clear and direct context; that causes confusion to the readers here.

While I gather that the temp reading you took from the stick-on thermometer was 89F, it doesn’t necessarily mean that gecko’s themselves were too hot (i.e. the thermometer could have been in at a “hot spot” in the cage). I think you made good observations, but may have drew too many conclusions from them.

Perhaps further investigation would have been a better course of action and would have provided a more complete picture of the situation.

______________________
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-Randy May
www.neoscales.com
Email Me

it also always bothers me to see bad kept animals, but over here in europe you can always call the "county" vet and tell him, if animals arent kept right.

on a show last sunday i started a debate with a seller whose acanthosaura where rather dead than living.

here in austria we will get the toughest animal-protection law ever in 2005. every private kept reptile will have to be announced to the local administration. also any breeding, and people will show up checking your husbandry. as everything, this will have good and bad sides. for example administration in some cases doesnt know the requirements of special species. a downside also is, they only allow the selling of 6 months or older reptiles, it is not allowed to sell wild caught animals, what i would actually see positive, but since the import doesnt seem to be illegal, shops will simply label wc as cb. until now you at least did know when an animal was wild caught and made tests for parasites and such ...
even shops will have a much harder life, i will try to translate some phrases:

minimum space requirments for shorttime husbandry in shops (in meters sorry):

climbing snakes:
length: length of the snake multiplied by 0,66
depth: length of snake x 0,5
height: 0.8 meters what is about 32"
and the space requirements raise for any animal kept in the same enclosure ....

ground living lizards:
length: complete length of the lizard multiplied by 2
depth: complete length x 2
height: 0.35 meters

there is also requirements for groundliving snakes and climbing lizards, and for turtles and and and ....

the animals must have hideouts

water has to be provided daily in clean dishes

temperature and humidity have to be apropiate for every species

and there are much more laws...

best regards

ingo
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Ingo Hess
My Reptiles

ps: sorry for partitial strange english, im from europe, austria.

I made the trip to the "big city" last weekend (Seattle) and stopped in the Petco that was located next to the mall where we were shopping. They had one very sad looking crested for sale. The colorful info sheet located on the front of its cage stated that Crested Geckos needed to be kept at 78 to 89 degrees with a basking spot of 90 to 110 degrees. This was a fancy corporate sheet not something created by the the in store "expert". When I pointed out the fact that they were cooking their gecko I was treated to the blank stare that for me has become the trademark of most chain retailers. SAD!

once again, this issue is something that has been brought up before. i have a friend who keeps cresteds and is actually a manager in the fish & reptile section of the local petsmart. she is the one i recently hatched a pair of eggs for. it used to be that petsmart would put each individual species in its own enclosure, making it easy to get the right setup for them (and i remember seeing crested geckos there 3 years ago, set up in a minimally decorated, but suitable habitat. within the past 2 years sometime, all petsmarts began to use those display cases that are in the shape of faux rock. the enclosures are thus tightly packed, small, difficult to reach into, and way overheated. now my friend has gone to great lengths to contact corporate to try to alleviate the situation. they lose geckos and chameleons like crazy, because the enclosure simply does not provide the circulation that they all need, and often causes the temperatures to skyrocket. often, as well, at such pet stores you get employees who are not even fit to handle the reptiles (my friend even told me a careless employee chopped a crested's tail off in the sliding glass door). on several occasions i have had to tell the employee to let me retrieve the desired gecko from the enclosure. i have even seen crested geckos in the baking display case that could not have been any more than a week old when they received them. its truly tragic. my friend has convinced her managers to allow her and other concerned employees to somewhat modify the enclosures to attempt to alleviate the situation. it has helped a little, but they still lose a lot of herps. i think someone brought it up that you can contact state animal cruelty prevention organizations, and perhaps you can call them out there to assess the situation, provide a list of the improperly cared for animals and the way they SHOULD be kept. its no doubt that this is cruelty to animals, but onfortunately most people can only sympathize for our mammalian relatives, mainly cats and dogs. most herps require much stricter conditions than any dog or cat, and they vary a lot species to species. maybe someone with connections can find if there are any legal measures that pet stores are required to take for their animals?

I don't know who you contact in the states, however i would personally call the SPCA

Animal cruelty is a crime that can face charges. If the higher ups don't listen get the cops involved

I think it shows progress that people are actually outraged instead of indifferent.
Good luck to all

ouch, if i ever saw someone slam the cage door on the animals tail, i'd be more than shocked. there are some bad pet stores here that really do need to change the way they house their animals and care for them.

the only major pet store i've seen sell cresties was one of the PetCo's in my area. no climbing spots... just an upside down half log, 1 small bowl of small mealies, and 1 small bowl of water. substrate was orange sand and the temps were high with the humidity low. once i saw that i was thinking of trying my best not to rescue it because i don't want them to just buy a new one and do the exact same thing to it.
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0.0.1 Bearded Dragon (Cookie Monster)
1.0.0 Crested Gecko (Vas-D)
0.0.2 Fire Bellied Toads (Norman & Forman)
0.0.2 Goldfish (Lenny & Carl)
1.0.0 Black Lab / Pit Bull (Mikey)

The problem is that contacting someone always puts us reptile hobbyists and breeders at risk. With more complaints come more statistics that anti reptile lobbyist can use to ban the keeping of reptiles. I wonder if gerbils and ferreets have had this hard a time.
Problem is do we take action and save the poor pet store fodder reps and risk losing our own healthy ones. Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place.
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1.0 Uromastyx
0.0.1 Sulcatta totoise
0.1 Leos
2.2 Corn snakes
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
2.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
2.1.1 crested geckos

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signature file edited. [phw 10/23/04]

In Manchester,NH. I bought my first two cresteds from them and there are at least two people that are very knowledgable about the herps they sell. The tanks are usually at the right temp/humidity with all their herps and appropriate food is given to them. The only problem I see there is over crowding in the cages.
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2.2.0 crested geckos (Speckles, Sunshine, Soldier, Sandy)
0.1.0 Striped Cal. Kingsnake (Snuggles)
1.1.0 Green Iguanas (Sisco,Speedy)
1.1.0 Emperor Scorpions (Strongbad,Serenity)
1.0.0 Rose Hair Tanrantula (Star)
1.0.0 Pink Toe Tarantula (Sal)

There were the same problems as stated. All of them had shedding problems bc of low humidity. The girl told me this batch (6 of them in the same cage) was doing well, but the last batch all died. She said these were doing good bc they researched them and they needed all this special lighting and "stuff". Which is funny bc in most cases they don't need any lighting. He was skinny. Now in like 1.5 weeks he has allready fattened up and is eating babyfood and crix. I have the cgd but i wanted him to fatten up on stuff he likes. Next week i think ill start w the diet.

John

happy to hear it found a good home and is doing well under your care. Shame to hear that they had to lose some before they looked into how to care for them

Someone I know got a crested gecko from petco. They gave her a leopard gecko caresheet and said to feed it mealworms and to get flourescent lighting and they sold her a 5 gallon tank and said he'd be fine for life in it. They didn't tell her about temperature or humidity. She ended up giving the lizard to me, and he was skinny and very pale and wouldn't eat at all. He's on a mix of baby food, the t rex diet, and waxworms/crickets now and has a 20 gallon tall tank and he is BRIGHT orange and eats like a pig.

I know I'm setting myself up for some shots from you guys, but I have to at least stand up for my store. I do work for a petco in Indianapolis and I'm proud of the way we care for our animals. I will conceed that there are quite a few petco's that are well below the acceptable standards. Those of us that work in the reptile section actually do care about the safety and well-being of the animals. Most of don't use the generic care sheets that are provided for us as the only reference. I use them as a starting point and build from there. 99% of the time, I give people this site as a reference for their questions once they get home, and I use my own experiences to help them care for their pets. Our manager actually let's us decide what animals we carry and has taken quite a bit of flak from the higher ups for it. We have spent hundreds of dollars to help sick animals that are the store's and we'll take customer's animals and help pay for care if they need help. Like I said, some stores are not the greatest, but I will defend my store.

Yeah i work at petsmart and i think we do a good job about our herps. although i have to argue with my speciality manager about leos and fattails together i try to not let him mix species but he orders stuff when we dont have enough room.Hes a real dick he had 2 pixies and two cubans when both are cannabalistic and refused to let me get a divider in the cage. pixie ate the two cubans and is getting bigger than the other. But sometimes its not the associates fault its the managers. i trie to do the best i can but sometimes its corporate stuff.it sucks
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0.1.0. Green Iguana (Ziggy)
0.1.0. Bearded Dragon (Dina)aka Ms.Piggy
1.0.0. Mali Uromastyx (unnamed)(rescue)
1.0.0. Crested Gecko (Ilik)
1.0.0. Leopard Gecko (Kirby)
1.0.0. Veiled Chameleon (Diablo)
0.0.1. Eastern Painted Turtle (Piccasso)
0.0.1. Common Snapping Turtle (Spike)
0.0.1. Red Eared Slider (Yoda)(rescue)
0.1.0. Amel Corn Snake (Lattice)
0.0.11. Hermit Crabs (unnamed)
0.0.2. Goldfish
0.0.2. African Dwarf Frogs (unnamed)
0.0.8. Assorted Tropical Fish
0.2.0. Dogs(Brandie & Molly)
1.1.1. Birds