Reptile & Amphibian Forums

After more than a year and half my pair of Philodryas olfersii died. I dont know why, both of them ate the food, regurgited and became lethargic and suddenly died. If any of you know any disease with these symptoms please report me.
Today I'll see how many eggs I have lost....

You would have to get a necropsy for sure but the symptoms are indicative of possible Cryptosporidosis infection (Crypto). It is a bacterial infection of the gut that causes syptoms similar to what you describe. The regurgitating being an indicator and the suddend death. Had you noticed any mid-body swelling that wouldn't be due to food? What is it that you feed them? I had 3.1 Langaha madagascariensis that all died within a week of each other about five years ago. They all ate wild collected Anolis carolinensis. We could not confirm for sure that the Anolis caused it but the only one of the group to survive without incident was an additional female who only fed on pinkie mice and thus the only difference between her and the others was the Anolis diet. A necropsy could tell you a lot if you have a local vet that knows their way around a reptile. Along with culturing the bacteria there is usually a thickening of the mucosal lining of the stomach. I don't know if you have other snakes but it is something that can be infectious so I would disinfect the cage with bleach immediately and the utensils that you use to feed and manipulate the snakes with.
Hope this helps
Brian Aucone

Brian

I lost my green vine snakes (Ahaetulla sp) to similar symtoms, including the mid-body swelling you refer to. I tried to convert them over to pinkies, but to no avail. Would you suggest a preventative treatment if you're going to feed them exclusivly anoles?? If so what we I treat them with and dosage?? I'm contemplating getting some more vines as they're awesome snakes. Please advise. Thanks for your help.

Brian

There is no absolute preventative for Crypto and it is not considered treatable in reptiles. Though there have been cases in which it appeared that the animal was able to survive and probably became a carrier of crypto and would have bouts now and then, probably at times of stress, where symptoms would appear and then subside again. There is some information out there that hyper immune (to crypto) bovine colostrum could be a treatment but you cannot get it anywhere as it is cost prohibitive to produce for treatment in reptiles. Some have suggested freezing the Anolis before feeding could help but there have been no studies indicating that this is a method that works.
A recent paper by Xiao et. al. 2004 found that there are a number of different species of Cryptosporidium found in reptiles. They also commonly found C. parvum regularly in the study, which is a mammalian crypto and came from the mice they consume, though the species do no cross into cold blooded species from their warm blooded counterparts.
So, it may be that some species, like Euphlebaris macularius, live with them in their guts normally but when transferred to another reptile, like a snake consuming them, they might become infectious. This is all undocumented though but just some thoughts on my part.
So to make a long answer longer, there is no way to guarantee that you couldn't pass along crypto to a new set of snakes, though there is also no way to absolutely say that is what killed your first group without a necropsy either.
Brian Aucone

Freezing is good for killing some parasites, but most bacteria can survive it. I would like to add a couple of idea's to this discussion. Snakes like the vine snakes that feed mainly on other herps, should, I expect have a higher tolarance to these types of infections. With my own snakes, my way of making sure that there food is free of infectious disease, is to observes the food items, healthy lizards, healthy snakes, no freezing needed. I would suggest that you consider the possiblity that the snakes come in contact with agents like Crypto all the time and the infection is kept at bay by the snakes immune system. And the real cause for the deaths is not the disease itself, but a weakened immune system cause by stress.

Certainly there are aspects of crypto that could be potentially attributed to a compromised immune system but I certainly don't think that it is that simple. For one, consideration of species specific Cryptosporidium could come into play. For instance, feeding an Ahaetulla prasina from southeast Asia an Anolis carolinensis from the southern U.S. exposes that snake to a potential group of parasites and bacteria that will differ, possibly significantly, from it's normal food source in the wild and that it's immune system cannot compensate. Or possibly, the Anolis carries crypto normally but the stress of capture and shipment lowers it's immune systems ability to keep it in check, allowing a bloom of Crypto. Then you purchase it for food purposes, it is not showing any signs and your not keeping it around long enough to see them because you feed it off to your snake. Now your snake has ingested a higher level of the bacteria to which it's immune system may not be able to compensate. I guess the point is that there are any number of other variables that can be mentioned but that there is not one clear cut answer, yet, as to how it is transmitted and how individual animals deal, or don't deal, with it. Either way, it is a bad disease to which hopefully further insight will yield better treatments.
Brian Aucone

I dont know where they could get it. They are CB and I kept them for 19 months. They only eated CB mices and mostly frozen ones. The terrarium was made by myself too. The only suspect is the logs that I collect at the fild, but they were sterilized with bleach. They are fixed at formalin, there's still a way to find out the causa mortis? Cryto is also harmful to lizards or only to snakes? Thank you
By the way: I have lost 4 big eggs on her.

Well I would guess that it was not crypto that killed them based on the fact that they were rodent feeders as the crypto carried by mammals cannot infect reptiles due to the physiological differences. It also does not survive outside a body for long so getting it from propping in the cage collected outside can be ruled out. I don't know if they can check for it after they have been fixed in formalin but the stomach can certainly be inspected for swelling of the mucosal lining.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Brian Aucone

How long have you had the wood in the enclosures with the snakes? Wood is porous, so it's not really a good idea to sanitize wood with bleach and expose it to animals because even if you rinse it throughly, their still might be enough bleach residue to harm the animals. Had you recently bleached the wood prior to their deaths?
I try and stay away from natural decorations for that very reason, they are porous and hard to sanitize with something like bleach without leaving some sort of residue. If you do use wood, baking it at 100F for an hour or so (make sure it doesnt burn) is a good way to kill any bacteria or viruses that may be present.
In any case, sorry to hear about your loss, you might want to look at what you were using to sanitize their decorations with. I'm not saying that's the cause, I'm just saying that it's worth investigating.

Sorry to hear of your loss, heres some info Ive put together on this topic.... one that every herp keeper unfortunately needs to be aware of.

September 9, 2000

Re: Squamate regurgitation syndrome.

I have learned the hard way how easily this pestilence (cryptosporidium) can move through a collection via cage cleaning/handling/feeding/Re-using containers/etc. Unless disposable gloves are employed (as in your doctors office), the entire collection becomes in jeopardy (handling the infected snake then working/feeding in another cage). This plague appears to require direct contact to disperse, it does not appear to be airborne.

I now have strict quarantine procedures in place for new squamates to prevent large losses as I've suffered before. I never work with a new or suspect animal on the same day I work w/ my other critters.

I believe many breeders are in denial & thus spreading this plague continually (their stock rotates thru the same cages). One of the sure signs is anyone who encourages feeding "small meals", Another is when you visit their "snake room" & the unmistakable odor of regurgitated mouse is in a tub or trash can.

I have kept innumerable snakes over a period in excess of 30 years, I have fed huge meals to a number of healthy snakes, meals so big they could not crawl afterwards, requiring 10 days to 2 weeks to process them. Virtually never have these snakes regurgitated these huge meals.

The symptoms of regurgitation syndrome are a very retching contraction of the snake/monitor. The prey usually looks 50-75% digested. Sometimes its hard to tell if the item is a scat or regurgitation. The odor associated w/ each is unmistakable though to the experienced keeper. The second consecutive regurgitation event [for me] is proof of a disease issue.

My last experience, 3 years ago was via a new San Felipe boa (first boa to regurgitate). I was too slow to respond...By the time I gave up 18 months later w/ Flagel treatments, vet & lab costs, etc. I wound up euthanizing 9 beautiful boas. I gave away (w/ lots of warnings) 4 more suspects. My fellow biologist who gave me the boa denies to this day he had (has) a problem, he recommended I feed it smaller meals! Lesson learned: Trust should be a fickle thing! Now all new arrivals start in quarantine. Of my last 6 mail order purchases (4 vendors); 3 of 6 specimens were infected!

I suspect the offending microorganism(s) can survive freezing; I once (for an experiment) froze a regurgitating yrlng boa & 1 month later fed it to a kingsnake, the kingsnake was regurgitating 1 week later.

Regurgitation should be very rare in healthy squamates. Any captives that regurgitate w/o apparent reason (cold or rough handling) should be assumed infected. They should be euthanized. Flagel & veterinary treatment appears to be generally ineffective. Treated animals should be assumed to be carriers [forever!] & always be maintained under quarantine procedures.

Prior to purchasing a squamate, you should inquire about your dealers business procedures in case you have to later deal w/ this issue. If a breeder refuses to warranty the health of their stock, you should post your experience on the various herp forums to assist them in their transition to ethical business practices!

All tubs/containers that held sick squamates should be thrown away or used to store tools. Used cages, even nice ones such as Neodesha are w/o value unless you explicitly trust the previous owner, or have access to an autoclave. Any new acquisitions should be maintained in a tub (minimally for a shed to shed cycle) before they are placed in a display case.

All breeder loans (bad idea) should be quarantined through a shed to shed cycle.

My experience/education with microbiology leads me to conclude that squamate gut microecology is so unknown, we ought not to assume too much & instead trust a few million years of evolution & try to manage for natural conditions, rather than espouse typical western medical dogmas such as striving for sterility. Many of these micro-organisms that we crudely observe & subsequently label as parasitic, are likely mutualistic; synthesizing vitamins or serving as catalysts for other complex biochemical reactions & interactions. Typical lab analysis’s will find a host of what we believe are nasty bacteria & protozoans, thus most samples will appear "sick" & "need treatment". I use this method; start natural & stay natural; feed natural foods in addition to the usual sterile lab mice. I have never known a wild-caught snake to exhibit the syndrome unless it was processed through the cages of a commercial dealer.

We herp enthusiasts have a duty to personally commit to doing our part in suppressing this plague; stop denying its existence & facilitating its insidious spread. This is one of the primary reasons we biologists strongly condemn the public releasing captive animals.

Cheers & beers, John Gunn

& furthermore…

In Reply to: Re: Is it reasonable to expect a breeder to guarentee crypto-free snakes? posted by Chris Koester on October 25, 1999 at 14:09:46:
: : What health certificates do snake breeders routinely provide?
: *********
: Routinely, none at all.
: I have heard that crpto is a parasite that is extremely contagious and fatal.
: *********
: I wouldn't call it "extremely" contagious, but it is 100% fatal.
: I have also heard that any surfaces that have been in contact with a crypto-positive snake must be disinfected with ammonia because this is the only thing that will kill the cryto. Is all of this true?
: **********
: High concentration ammonia is one of the few disinfectants that effectively kills Cryptosporidium.
: What are the symptoms of a crypto-positive snake?
: **********
: Anorexia, regurgitation, gastric hypertrophy (visible swelling in the stomach).
: Is crypto a threat to all reptiles?
: **********
: It is definitely a threat to snakes and lizards, and has also been identified in turtles.
: Is crypto a threat to humans?
: **********
: Cryptosporidium serpentis is the species that infects reptiles. It does not appear to be a threat to humans. Cryptosporidium parvum is the species that infects cattle, sheep, etc, and is definitely a zoonotic threat, especially to immunocompromised people (AIDS, cancer patients).
:
: All good questions. You can never be too careful, but don't be too paranoid about crypto. Use sanitary practices with your own snakes, make sure to utilize a quarantine period for all new animals in your collection, and buy animals from reputable, trustworthy breeders.
: Chris Koester

Posted by Ryancentini on July 11, 2002 at 00:26:47:
In Reply to: Crypto posted by Dan on July 10, 2002 at 07:26:04:
Here is a info. sheet I did for our clients at the Bird and Exotic pet Hospital on crpto I hope it helps. It done in a question answer format. If there are any questions feel free to email mvirids@hotmail.com
REPTILIAN CRYPTOSPORIDIOSIS
By Ryan Centini
What is cryptosporidiosis? Cryptosporidium is a internal protozoal parasite which is a type of coccidia.
Can humans or other animals get cryptosporidiosis from reptiles? There are eight different species of Cryptosporidium. C. serpentis is the one that affects reptiles and seems only to effect reptiles. C. parvum affects mammals and is the only one known to affect humans. C. parvum can infect suckling mice a reptile that ate a mouse infected with C. parvum although it would not be affected by it, it could pass the oocysts in its feces and under these circumstances could infect a human. However this would really be getting C. parvum from a mouse not C. serpintis from a reptile.
What reptiles can get cryptosporidium? It has been reported in all families of reptiles except crocodilians. Some species seem to be at higher risk of developing the disease than others; cornsnakes, eastern indigo snakes, pine-gopher snakes, (especially albino cornsnakes and pine-gopher snakes), emerald tree boas, boa constrictors, as well as rock rattlesnakes, monocled cobras, and death adders (but I hope these last three are not kept as pets!). Snakes in general seem to be at higher risk than other reptiles. In lizards it has been most commonly seen in gila monsters, geckoes (especially leopard geckoes), chameleons, monitors, and iguanas. Cryptosporidium has been found in several species of turtles and tortoises. However it does not seem to cause disease in them, they may just be carriers of it. They can transmit it to snakes and lizards though. This is just one good example of why different species of reptiles should not be housed togther.
How is cryptosporidum transmitted? Cryptosporium oocysts are shed in the feces and they are found on regurgitated food. These oocysts can then get on cages, bags, cleaning instruments, water bowls, cage decorations, in the water, and hands. And transmitted to reptiles in other cages. The oocysts can survive for several months in the right conditions (with the fecal matter or with moisture and low temperatures) and are hard to kill (see prevention below). Cryptosporidiosis should be considered as highly contagious and the highest standards in sanitation should be exercised.
What are the signs of cryptosporidiosis? In snakes cryptosporidium is mostly found in the stomach and causes weight loss, regurgitation, and in the later stages gastric hypertrophy (thickening of the stomach wall). In lizards it usually found in the intestines. Where it causes diarrhea, weight loss, and anorexia. There is a report of cryptosporidum in the kidneys of a iguana and a Parson’s chameleon and the salivary gland of a iguana. There are reports of reptiles that shed the organism but never developed any signs and of reptiles that developed signs but through supportive therapy got better. These seem to be the exception though and most die. There are several diseases that can cause these same signs so LET A VETERINARIAN MAKE THE DIAGNOSES.
Is there a cure for cryptosporidiosis? There are several drugs that have been tried. A lot of them have caused a decrease in the number of oocysts and a few even seem to have stopped the shedding. But these result have been inconsistent. Reptiles that are positive for cryptosporidiosis should be strictly quarantined with separate cleaning instruments or be destroyed.
How is cryptosporidiosis diagnosed? There are a few methods one is to do a acid-fast test on the contents of a stomach wash (this is best done three days after a meal in snakes), the feces, or mucus from regurgitated food. An immunofluorescent antibody (IFA) on the feces. A enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) on the plasma. And a biopsy of the stomach lining this is the most invasive, but can yield good results. With any of these tests a negative does not mean the reptile does not have cryptosporidiosis it just means it was not in that sample. With three negatives you can reasonably sure the reptile does not have it.
Prevention. As mentioned before cryptospridium is very hard to kill. The only known disinfectant that can reasonably be used is household ammonia with 30 minutes of contact. It should only be used in a well ventilated area. AMMONIA AND BLEACH SHOULD NEVER BE MIXED. A substrate that can be thrown out like newspaper should be used, cage decorations should be plastic so they can be sanitized, wood is difficult to sanitize so should not be used.

I agree, you have stated the point that I was trying make above in much better detail. The presence of a bacteria doesn't necessarly equal disease, and there aren't any sterilers or freezer in the wild.