Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'll have to make short and sweet because i'm getting ready to head out the door for work.

With the limited gene pool we have been given to work with I realize it is going to be tough to know for sure if we are inbreeding our couperi. However, I believe that we have a responsibility to avoid this in order to preserve these snakes in captive populations.

Our (i'm not breeding yet) captive breeding efforts in my opinion are the single most important thing we can do to preserve these awesome creatures, even more so than conservation.

I have 1.2 easterns, all obtained from the same breeder but, the male is from different (unrelated??) parents. I strongly believe that this is the best way to go for now, until we get a stud book up on line.

I don't want to step on any toes or make any enemies here but, I would like to see you all (I know I will) make every attempt to avoid selling sibling pairs to people to avoid the temptation to breed them together.
Most but certainly not all people who obtain a pair WILL breed that pair together, siblings or not. WE CAN NOT ALLOW THIS!!!

Thanks for listening & I look forward to reading your replies.

Eric

I agree. However, I think that as long as the buyer is made aware (in no uncertain terms) that the snakes are siblings, then it should be OK. Indigo breeders are not like Corn Snake breeders, or people breeding other snakes down for a particuar "morph".

It would be ideal (perfect world scenario) if we could refer buyers to each other to ensure unrelated pairs. For instance, a buyer comes to me for a pair of babies. All I have are siblings at that time. I could sell them either the male of the female and refer them to another breeder for the other half of their pair. Then when he has a customer looking for a pair, he could reciprocate. The problems are, first off, the ratio of males to females in both clutches has to be conducive, and secondly the shipping is doubled.

So, we just make sure the buyer knows that the pair are siblings and make the sale. I suppose we are relying on the assumption (hope?) that the buyer is the same as the rest of us and will obtain unrelated specimens from another breeder for their breeding purposes.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Unfortunately, there is not a great deal of information regarding the founding stock currently held by most breeders.
Since the majority of specimens currently held within captivity originated from animals collected over 30 years ago, a time when very few people maintained accurate collection records, it is now next to impossible to know whether the stock from two separate breeders are related, even if they are on opposite coasts.
There needs to be some serious effort placed into DNA analysis, on behalf of the private sector, should private breeders wish to utilize the genetic diversity currently held within captivity to their advantage.
I have been working on similar project regarding P. ruthveni for just over one year now and have found the largest negative factor to be the lack of cooperation among breeders and keepers within the private sector.
Anyhow, I hope that Dry keepers and breeders would be more willing, then their Pit cohorts, to cooperate with such a project.

Best regards,

Jeff

>>Unfortunately, DNA work is prohibitively expensive for private breeders at present, and not really easy to gain access to. You are in a sort of unique position in that you have the access through the University. If there were some avenue available to me to be able to submit DNA for analysis for all of my animals (without refinancing my house) I would do it in a heartbeat.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

It's funny you should mention that OH...
I have been debating whether or not to continue the project involving P. ruthveni, as there are only a couple of individuals, within the private sector, who were willing to submit material for the P. ruthveni project.
Should the P. ruthveni project not pan out, I was going to attempt a similar project involving Drymarchon spp.
My problem is now the time already expended and the material I already have on hand from the two individuals who submitted such, as I do not wish to disappoint them..
Also, the folks in the genetics lab are doing this as a favor, and they thought it would be a worthwhile project, though they are now becoming quite skeptical, as am I.
I once often wondered why there was so much animosity between zoological / educational entities and private hobbyist; I’m now beginning to see some of the reasons for such, and I find it quite disheartening, as there is a wealth of information and material to draw from all sides…

Jeff

I would think that the ruthveni guys would be jumping at the chance to get genetics established for their bloodlines now, before they have a real problem.

If you could start a project on Drymarchon, that would dovetail perfectly with the project shadindigo and I are working on to get breeding data and studbook data online. I would be all over getting samples to you and I'm sure a number of other Dry folks would too.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

That's what I thought, as did the few who actually provided material for analysis.
The study was to focus on relation and hybridization within the captive population..
I believe the “H” word scared a lot of them away.
Believe me, should I be able to persuade the genetics lab to take on another "pet" project of this sort, the Dry community will be the first to know of it.
As they say, hindsight is 20/20....

Jeff

I would be happy to forward samples to you. They are supposedly from Terry V's stock. They are juveniles and are siblings. Just let me know what you need and how to proceed with forwarding.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

O.H. I was just wondering what all kinds of reptiles you keep?And also was wondering how long you have been working with reptiles? dry's in particular.

Wesss

>>O.H. I was just wondering what all kinds of reptiles you keep?And also was wondering how long you have been working with reptiles? dry's in particular.
>>
>>
>>Wesss

Right now I'm keeping and breeding a few Pits...ruthveni, jani, and several lodingi, some Green Tree Pythons, a bunch of Milk Snakes and King Snakes, Texas Indigos, Mexican Redtail Indigos, Yellowtails, and Unicolor.

I've been keeping reptiles now for about 38 years, and Drymarchon since I got my first Eastern Indigo in 1968.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>I've been keeping reptiles now for about 38 years, and Drymarchon since I got my first Eastern Indigo in 1968.
>>-----

OH, you really are old, you've been keeping snakes for 38 years
which is how long i've been living!
If it makes you feel better, i've been keeping them 33 of those 38 years.

Eric

>>>>I've been keeping reptiles now for about 38 years, and Drymarchon since I got my first Eastern Indigo in 1968.
>>>>-----
>>
>>OH, you really are old, you've been keeping snakes for 38 years
>>which is how long i've been living!
>>If it makes you feel better, i've been keeping them 33 of those 38 years.
>>
>>Eric

Yeah, but every time I think about being old, I remember the alternative...all in all, I'm sort of glad to be old.

You know, collectively on this forum we must have a couple thousand years of experience...
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Many people dealing in P. ruthveni are very shady! It was no surprise to me when Jeff told of his negative dealings with private breeders of this species. Now, there are some GREAT breeders working with them. Not many. Honestly, I know of 3 that I would trust. However, there are some of the Pituophis Big Boys who have very questionable animals. A few years back, I had inquired in the forum about one of the "big boys" lines...just looking for info...not putting the animals down or anything. I was met with such resentment by the breeder and his "band of idiots" that I rarely post there anymore because I lack respect for most of the regulars who were there at that time. Just as I said that there were 3 breeders that I trust, only one of them would be considered a "Pituophis Big Boy," one who breeds many types of Pits and produces great quantity and quality. However, there are three breeders, some of the BIGGEST of Biggest ...I'm talking top rung....with OBVIOUSLY tainted, hybridized, however you want to say, ruthveni. I mean BLATANT!

If you're in the market for ruthveni, it is a long process! I have been doing my homework for 5 years and only recently came to find my list of three people with pure ruthveni. I am wishing to purchase a pair for my school, and the last thing I want is to have misrepresented animals bearing my name!
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Anthony Chodan

www.gradeareptiles.com

"I once often wondered why there was so much animosity between zoological / educational entities and private hobbyist; I’m now beginning to see some of the reasons for such, and I find it quite disheartening, as there is a wealth of information and material to draw from all sides…"

hey jeff,

finding myself going back and forth between the two worlds, i often wondered the exact same thing. both "sides" have so much to offer the other.

it looks like PARC could possibly be one of the joining forces that offers some common ground. let's hope so.

matt

>>"I once often wondered why there was so much animosity between zoological / educational entities and private hobbyist; I’m now beginning to see some of the reasons for such, and I find it quite disheartening, as there is a wealth of information and material to draw from all sides…"
>>
>>hey jeff,
>>
>>finding myself going back and forth between the two worlds, i often wondered the exact same thing. both "sides" have so much to offer the other.
>>
>>it looks like PARC could possibly be one of the joining forces that offers some common ground. let's hope so.
>>
>>matt

This is one of those things where Human Nature has reared it's ugly head and bitten, leaving probably permanent scars.

Folks, this is something we have to fix. We need to drop the "Institutionals" and "Privateers" division and try to be one cooperative group working for a single purpose. I'm not sure how we accomplish that, but we have to do something. PARC is going a long ways towards getting dialog established, but we need to do more. When we have an opportunity, such as what Epidemic has put forward with the DNA sequencing, we need to jump on the bandwagon and make sure we take advantage of it. The LA Pine Snake people have foolishly missed a huge opportunity that would not only further their little niche, but would also help the entire herp communtiy by making one more step toward closing the chasm.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

“The "Institutionals", on average, tend to look down their noses at the "Privateers".

“Then on the "Privateer" side, there is a high level of mistrust and resentment. If an "Institutional" actually wants to interact with the "Privateer" sector, the attitude is often "What does he want? What is he trying to take away from me?" ”

“ We need to drop the "Institutionals" and "Privateers" division and try to be one cooperative group working for a single purpose. ”

Wise words. I often find myself hearing these types of attitudes from both sides and it’s frustrating.

The fact that i teach at the college level and have been doing herp related research at universities for 20 years, labels me as an institutional. However, having kept, collected, and bred a variety of snakes, lizards, turtles and tortoises for more years than I’d care to admit makes me a privateer as well. In fact, a few years back the institutionals referred to privateers as “SNAKERS.” Relative to most people on this list, my having a pair of indigos that I’d like to breed some day, makes me more of an amateur-privateer in that respect.

I hold out hope. I was able to get over 3 dozen toenail and blood samples from Russian tortoises owned by private collectors so that we could run a preliminary genetic screen with microsatellite DNA. This research was planned and set up much the same way we’re starting here.

let's drop the walls and get the dialogue going!

happy thanksgiving all,

matt

PARC is a great organization. While more "scientific" based, they are very open to the private sector and as you mentioned, could provide the bridge between hobby and science.
By the way, will any of you be attending the regional PARC meeting, here in Arkansas, this February?

Jeff

I don't think we can safely say that "Indigo breeders are not like Corn Snake breeders, or people breeding other snakes down for a particular "morph"."

Those of us on this forum may not do it but there are a lot of people out there who would. I've heard it said that the price of indigos weeds out the idiots and I agree to a degree but, let's not forget that there are a lot idiots out there who have more money than sense. There are a lot of boas being sold for $1,000-10,000

Eric

"I've heard it said that the price of indigos weeds out the idiots and I agree to a degree but, let's not forget that there are a lot idiots out there who have more money than sense. There are a lot of boas being sold for $1,000-10,000"

just like they say in minnesota -- "the good thing about the cold is it keeps out the riff-raff." but there's still riff-raff in minnesota.

i am currently involved with a genetics project looking at multiple paternity in russian tortoises. we used microsatellite DNA sequences. is the ruthveni study using satellite DNA?

this project was relatively easy in that we were simply looking at parentage. unique sequences appearing between moms and offspring and then looking for unique male sequences. i think that looking at a potentially complex web of varyingly related individuals is inherently tougher.

yes, it's expensive, but i'm wondering how many useful sequences have already been worked out. the more people identifying unique sequences the faster and easier (relatively) it would be to get a decent protocol up and running. what we need is a grant.

matt

Sounds Great Eric,

Though some inbreeding may have occurred, preventing more inbreeding is not a lost cause and helps out a lot.

For example, just because the captive population is at least 30 years from wildcaught, and some inbreeding may have occurred, yes, a whole lot of good can still be accomplished by preventing further inbreeding.

A studbook seems like a really fantastic idea. For the time and ease of it, the only restricting thing to me is internet know-how starting a website and then passing the stuff onto who ever wants to centralize the data more.

Zoo stock and genetic markers are really nice exotic helpers, but they really seem too far off right now. Otherwise that would be really convenient.

I had to call the guy whom I bought my animal from and ask the name of who he bought it the parents from, city he lived in, call information try a few numbers, introduce myself and ask him if he would mind sharing where he got his animals from and so on.
When i stated I wanted to prevent inbreeding my snake, he was really happy to talk and to help, even though he has long since stopped breeding.

I ended up getting some other useful info about the parents, parents as well.

Are there gaps my knowledge of ancestry?
Yes, for sure,
but, I know most of the more well-known breeders in my state have stock not directly related to mine.
I can buy from them and at least prevent getting a sib or half sib with confidence, and that really helps.

So, thats a humble start. At least I have a better chance than not of preventing inbreeding with my animal. Sure maybe there is a distant cousin she gets paired up with, but that is a whole lot better that a sib-sib pairing.

I really care about these animals as a species and want to see the opportunity to keep owning them as true indigos, not "bug-eyed, regurg-prone, quarter clutch viability at hatching" red from head to tale line-bred morph freaks.

Although most guys here feel the same way, not everyone that has or breeds indigos posts here, so we cannot let this forum speak for them.

I really agree with you Eric, keep up the good fight.

Matt

"For example, just because the captive population is at least 30 years from wildcaught, and some inbreeding may have occurred, yes, a whole lot of good can still be accomplished by preventing further inbreeding."

hi matt,

i agree, for the time being, everyone should do the best they can with what they know. even if some of us are able to trace our animals back only a couple of generations (there seem to be a few tight lips), it could make a difference.

there's really no way of knowing what's going on until we are able to look at the genome.

genetically speaking, we may be looking at a done deal. let's assume that all the easterns in private collections today all decended from snakes that were in captivity 30 years ago (i would be shocked if this were the case). chances are (without any gene flow into this "population" very few animals represent the founding stock of the current captive population. we could potentially be looking at very high levels of homozygosity and the loss of many alleles. it's been shown with some inbred lines, that once you get rid of the recessive lethals, you're left with fixation of mostly nonlethal genes. this is how we can have genetically identical strains of mice. they breed out the recessive lethals. don't expect these strains of mice to make it anywhere but in a sterile cage full of purina mouse chow.

it would be nice to see a show of hands of those willing to offer samples of their animals for a population genetics study. we were able to get good DNA samples from tortoise toenails, we might be able to get DNA from cast skins instead of blood samples.

matt

>>it would be nice to see a show of hands of those willing to offer samples of their animals for a population genetics study. we were able to get good DNA samples from tortoise toenails, we might be able to get DNA from cast skins instead of blood samples.
>>
>>matt

I sure most of us would be willing to send some shed skins & possibly some blood if needed. I will.

Eric

Count me in, too!
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Hey Matt, You brought up a lot of neat points, but because of time I have to respond in bullets****. No offense meant by my brevity.

i agree, for the time being, everyone should do the best they can with what they know. even if some of us are able to trace our animals back only a couple of generations (there seem to be a few tight lips), it could make a difference.

*****Well, then lets get started!

there's really no way of knowing what's going on until we are able to look at the genome. genetically speaking, we may be looking at a done deal. let's assume that all the easterns in private collections today all decended from snakes that were in captivity 30 years ago (i would be shocked if this were the case).

*****Sure, But, lack of certainty is no reason to stop inbreeding from happening now and in the future.

chances are (without any gene flow into this "population" very few animals represent the founding stock of the current captive population.

*****We don't have the luxury to field collect, I don't buy the fact that we are at 100% indigo owner(not forum member) understanding of inbreeding effects to exaggerate rare lethal recessives. Idoubt that we who know inbreeding is really bad husbandry are a majority, perhaps on the board, but not over all the people who own and breed indigos. So, in this collective effort it seems to me there are still those drilling holes in the boat so to speak.

we could potentially be looking at very high levels of homozygosity and the loss of many alleles. it's been shown with some inbred lines, that once you get rid of the recessive lethals, you're left with fixation of mostly nonlethal genes. this is how we can have genetically identical strains of mice. they breed out the recessive lethals. don't expect these strains of mice to make it anywhere but in a sterile cage full of purina mouse chow.

*******You mean they weed out the affecteds, not the heterozygote carriers. Yuo cannot entirely clean a strain of recessive lethals, thats why the lines are so fragile as you mentioned before. Its costly in terms of culling animals. Perhaps not a good example when referring to an endangered species. Many of these commercially available inbred strains used for research collapse (proected lab environment). Many lines must be maintained simulataneously, sometimes reconstitution from founder stock is necessary.

it would be nice to see a show of hands of those willing to offer samples of their animals for a population genetics study. we were able to get good DNA samples from tortoise toenails, we might be able to get DNA from cast skins instead of blood samples.

******Count me in too, along with no doubt yourself, OH, and Eric , I just doubt we will see it materialize beyond that.
I appreciate your points I would prefer genotyping, but again, the seed must grow where it lands. Here we are---I am guilty too---of not seeking some platform to share our snakes family histories. But I still think we have education left to perform with some guys who may think this all this talk of inbreeding is all about nothing, sending us further backwards.

*****I know you are one of the good guys as are many here trying to care the most for the captive population and wild population, and you are truly seeing the big picture, but I think we can (and should) do the most to control our actions now, without complete visibility on the long term picture.

matt

My opinions on this will probably rub a few people wrong, but they are just my opinions so don't let them bug you too much.

I'm just not all that convinced that we should put so much effort into worrying about bloodlines of animals whose genes will never be seen in the native environment.

I'm trying to imagine an indigo population in the wild and how much inbreeding would go on within that population. I'd bet there's plenty of sibling, parent to offspring or first cousins breeding it up out in the wild. Sure, an indigo will have a large range, but it's the same range its parents and siblings have used for generation upon generation. Sure there's genes flowing and spreading, but there's also lots of culling of the unfit. Nature is unrelenting in the removal of those that are unfit to survive. There's enough geneflow, inbreeding and culling to keep populations vigorous.

I believe we could have just as much of a positive effort on our captive collections by making sure that we sell our best offspring to people with a serious interest in breeding their animals, culling out animals with flaws as pets or feeders and not being secretive about breeding techniques. We'll keep the captive population gnetically viable by keeping as many healthy individuals in the pool as possible.

Every time this topic comes up, all I can do is think about dumeril's boas, angolan pythons, and even a bit about corn snakes. Dumeril's boas and Angolan pythons both have small captive starter groups and are doing fine in the wood and plastic boxes we call their homes.

Corn snakes are intentionally inbred for oddball colors. Sure they'd last about 10 minutes in the wild, but they are just fine in cages.

We don't need to produce animals capable of surviving in the wild. Nothing I breed could ever be used for release to the wild. The risks of introducing diseases that could have been introduced by the other snakes I keep makes everything I breed useless for anything but being a pretty critter in a box. My guess is every breeder reading this is in the same situation as me.

I don't want to belittle any studbook or genetic study efforts. I'd participate myself. But I'd be involved more because I'd find it a useful pursuit of knowledge and information than because I think our efforts would help indigos. The only genes I'm really worried about are the ones that are still out in the wild.

Wild healthy populations are the true indigo treasures and conservation efforts are what I think will make the biggest difference. Our captives are anachronisms that, though deserving of our respect and care, are doomed as dead ends.

As I said at the begining of this post... these are just my opinions and they aren't intended to belittle anyone elses ideas or beliefs. If you don't like them, that's ok.

Did I mention... my indigos were locked up mating yesterday so I have a pretty good chance at eggs this year

Doug T

Doug, I find myself agreeing with your points. We seem to think that our many wonderful breeding efforts are saving the couperi populations (and other Drys) but really, now, all we are doing is giving ourselves a big pat on the back for breeding an endangered species that will NEVER see the wild. Of course, there could come a time where we may have to dip into the captive populations but that would take a very, very extreme situation that I don't see happening. Where I see the benefit of our efforts involves conservation education which is just as important. I purposely sell indigos to people who are going to keep an indigo to use for education to teach people about why it is so important to protect habitat through supporting agencies who are actively protecting this animal and its habitat. That's where I see the true benefit in breeding indigos. As far as inbreeding goes, I have to agree in that we really don't know the true diversity of bloodlines among the U.S. captive pool maintained by private and public facilities. I am in full support of genetic testing and like you, will give it my 100% suport and endorsement because it will be interesting to see what we find. This is really a great topic for discussion because there are no rights and wrongs but I think we do need to be honest with ourselves in why we are working with indigos. That's why I find myself shaking my head when I hear people saying that they don't disinfect their cages because their indigos will not be able to build up a resistance to disease. Disease from what? These snakes are never going to see freedom and it is our responsibility to maintain them in conditions that are as clean as possible...just my .02 and another topic that has been debated quite a bit.

Rob Carmichael

My goal is only to see the captive populations flourish as long as possible, even if no repatriation were to occur form captive stock. Its easy and responsible to minimize further inbreeding. This is a huge step forwrd for the future, even if some inbreeding may have already occurred.

Matt

As Doug said, i'm not trying to make any enemies, i'm just stating my beliefs.

I believe that couperi will likely one day be extinct regardless of conservation efforts. Does that mean I think we should give up on them? By no means! I whole hearted believe we should continue with conservation and education efforts to give wild couperi a fighting chance at survival.

However, I am more concerned about the future of the animals
currently in our collections. Should wild populations continue to decline to the point of extinction we will either be glad we took the time to care for them above and beyond the call or wish we had. We must make every effort to keep our couperi as healthy as possible, whether that's by properly disinfecting their cages or making every effort to avoid inbreeding.

At least it's not dead around here anymore!

I hope all of you have a great Thanksgiving!

Eric

I want to say Hi to all of you out there. I've been following this topic with great interest. As most of you know, I don't jump in too often, but I'm out here reading. I would like to add a few comments myself.

As far as inbreeding goes, I always tried to breed unrelated stock. However I will be honest, I bred a few siblings together if I felt the need. I used to trade animals alot to get more diversity in my breeding stock. I almost always sold unrelated pairs, if I couldn't, I let the buyer know that they were related. Even if only one parent was in common. I didn't really have a problem as I had such a large colony. I would suggest all the breeders that are really serious about breeding these awesome animals, invest in unrelated stock. Even if it means buying from different breeders. You breeders should pair up as necessary to help the customers get unrelated animals. It bennifits all concerned.

As for all the Indigos in captivity going back only 30 years: Yeah right! I know that when I was a big breeder, I was offered questionable animals all the time. I never bought an illeagle animal, for lots of reasons. The most important is that the Feds used to operate lots of stings. I imagine they still do. I never saw an animal that I wanted bad enough to risk loosing my entire colony. That being said, I am sure there are folks out there that would take the chance on a questionable animal.

As bad as that is, you all really benifit from that as well. Now don't get upset, let me explain. When someone buys a "New" to captivity animal and breeds it. That new line is introduced into the gene pool. So you may not even know if you bought an F1 or F2 baby. I am not condoning this, just stating the facts.

As for a Stud book on your breeders. Good luck. How long before the Feds decide to audit your records based on something they find in your stud records. As I mentioned in the preceding paragraph, you may not even know if you have an F1 or F2 animal. You supply DNA and they do a sting with a known wild strain of DNA and then what happens to you and your animals?

Sorry if this is mostly negative, but I want you all to be sure you are doing the correct thing for yourselves as well as these beautiful animals.

GOD bless all of you and have a Great Thanksgiving.

Chuck

Great to see you participating Chuck!

I have to agree with you. The occasional induction of "wild" genetics into teh current captive population is of great benefit, though indeed illegal in most cases.
However, anyone acquiring a D. couperi should have the paperwork to back up the origins of such a specimen, whether such is obtained via interstate or intrastate commerce.
In short, beware any d. couperi without a paper-trail, or you could be asking for trouble.
You are correct, as there are folks out there still offering illegally obtained specimens. You're also correct that both the USF&W and local enforcement agencies operate "sting" operations.
For instance, I was offered some baby D. couperi earlier this year, around the time of the Daytona show. I was told the female which produced the clutch was a wild caught 6' plus, high red specimen. The potential seller also indicated they would like to complete the deal at the Daytona show. When I mentioned the acquisition of permits, the seller immediately ended negotiations..
The only legal specimens, of wild origins, are currently within zoological and research institutions, as specimens confiscated from poachers are not released back into the wild, but rather given to such entities.
My point is, to take the private sector to the “next” level in bridging the gap between the institutional and private sector a lot of work will be required. We can’t expect PARC or any other organization to magically bind the two sectors together without the private sector showing a willingness to cooperate and developing creative techniques for gathering and managing information.
In short, there are some legal “wild” genes out there, but unless the private sector is willing to take innovative action, they will be lost to such..

Best regards,

Jeff

PS: I still have the photos of the specimens offered to me in the scenario posted above. Let me know if you would like for me to post them, or simply sedn them to you, as I would like to know the origins of such…

Eric, not sure why you feel we are disagreeing, I completely agree with your statements but as a biologist/professional herpetologist, who basically spends most of my work time studying herps, I am just telling it like it is from a purely conservation management point of view.

Rob

Rob,

I was saying that I was disagreeing with some of Doug's opinions and since you said that you agreed with him I figured you were guilty by association.

Eric

I'm reminded of Frank Slavens effort with ISIS, a clearing house for captive bred reptile species information regarding where and how many animals were bred. Not enough breeders took the time or effort to contribute and it became kind of pointless.

A lot of what I tried to say is I'm not convinced that really working hard to mix up the genes helps anyway. Sure if you breed siblings for generations you'll get bad recessive genes popping up. But constantly mixing bloodlines also may give us a homogenous captive population that's just as useless as a 2 headed albino.

Are we trying to avoid ANY defects? Is that really a good reason? Mother Nature inbreeds a LOT. Inbreeding is more "normal" than breeding individuals from opposite ends of an animals range.

The way I see it, the best way for us to keep the captive population of Indigos is to:

1.Breed them
2.Cull obvious bad animals
3.Help others to be successful breeders

As the webmaster of www.indigosnakes.com, I can tell you that we're good with #1, ok with #2, but LAME with #3. I get pictures every month of indigos from folks hoping I'll post a pretty picture of their snake, but how often do I get caresheets? Since I've taken over the running of the site several years ago, I've gotten 1 caresheet to post.

The way I see it, we're talking a lot about keeping lots of genes in the pool, keeping track of all the genes in the pool, but doing poorly at the easiest thing to keep the pool full, sharing our breeding tricks.

So here's my suggestion for maitaining healthy populations... With every baby indigo you sell, include a written caresheet on how you raise, prepare for breeding, breed, incubate and feed. Babies will be sold across the nation to various breeders and your lines will spread. Problem gone.

Sorry if I'm coming across as a nay-sayer. I've just developed an opinion and, well, you were willing to read it.

And while I'm ranting... It's breeding season and you're messing with the computer. Shouldn't you be putting your male and females together right now?

Doug T

>>However, I am more concerned about the future of the animals
>>currently in our collections. Should wild populations continue to decline to the point of extinction we will either be glad we took the time to care for them above and beyond the call or wish we had. We must make every effort to keep our couperi as healthy as possible, whether that's by properly disinfecting their cages or making every effort to avoid inbreeding.
>>
>>At least it's not dead around here anymore!
>>
>>I hope all of you have a great Thanksgiving!
>>
>>Eric

Doug, i agree with you; when folks obtain an indigo from me, they get a care sheet but it does lack a certain amount of detail regarding breeding....that does need to change.

I've got two pairs locked up at this very moment...should be another good year...funny to say that you are having a successful year when you breed two pairs of snakes!

Rob

Doug,
You are correct. Inbreeding and linebreeding occur a lot in nature. Some of that may, in fact, be beneficial to the species.

My point is that since we are working with a finite gene pool, we need to control how much of it occurs within our captive populations. There is nothing wrong with some inbreeding in captive animals when we know that the genes are good. However, if we have an animal that, for instance, occasionally throws a dwarf offspring or some scalation defect, we would want to avoid breeding that animal with it's siblings or with other offspring from the same parental stock. We have the knowledge and the technology to keep from propagating bad genes, I think we should at least attempt to use it. Simply culling the obviously defective offspring is a good star, but we have to remember that the parents as well as the normal appearing siblings are probably still carrying the gene that caused the defect.

You are correct also, in that we don't want to just randomly mix gene pools any more than we want to inbreed excessively. That's just another way to spread bad genes over a larger population. We need to assemble as much information as we can so that we can make intelligent decisions on what bloodlines to breed. The thing is that we need honest information. If a particular snake has thrown dwarf offspring in the past, for instance, we need to know that. It doesn't mean that animal can't ever be bred again, by careful breeding we may be able to breed that trait out down the line. We will never be able to accomplish that if we don't know what we are breeding.

As far as captive Indigos never being reintroduced to the wild, I wouldn't be the farm on it. I think we are all in agreement that the Eastern Indigo is in dire trouble in the wild. There are a few pockets of healthy populations, but on the whole, the species is in trouble. It's just a matter of time before the existing good habitat and good populations are compromised by development. Money talks. That's just a fact of life. Indigos are going to lose more and more habitat to development and human encroachment in the coming years. Right now we don't use repatriation with Eastern Indigos for several reasons. One is the threat of introducing captive stock into wild populations. There is a danger of exceeding the carrying capacity of the habitat, which would possibly cause the loss of wild satock as well as the introduced stock. Another problem is the potential for introducing diseases from the captive stock into the wild stock for which they would have no antigens. Another problem is that, in the past, the released captive stock has not thrived for one reason or another. I think we will work through those problems and eventually learn how to successfully repatriate a habitat. I see, at some point in the future, suitable habitat being set aside for this purpose. If the habitat supports sympatric species and has suitable prey items, shelter (Gopher Tortoise burrows, etc.), water sources, sufficient range, etc. but no EXISTING populations of Indigos, then there is no reson that habitat can't be repatriated from captive stock. If and when that happens, there will be a need for reasonably disease-free stock with good, strong genetics.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>Doug,
>>You are correct. Inbreeding and linebreeding occur a lot in nature. Some of that may, in fact, be beneficial to the species.
>>
>>My point is that since we are working with a finite gene pool, we need to control how much of it occurs within our captive populations. There is nothing wrong with some inbreeding in captive animals when we know that the genes are good. However, if we have an animal that, for instance, occasionally throws a dwarf offspring or some scalation defect, we would want to avoid breeding that animal with it's siblings or with other offspring from the same parental stock. We have the knowledge and the technology to keep from propagating bad genes, I think we should at least attempt to use it. Simply culling the obviously defective offspring is a good star, but we have to remember that the parents as well as the normal appearing siblings are probably still carrying the gene that caused the defect.
>>
>>You are correct also, in that we don't want to just randomly mix gene pools any more than we want to inbreed excessively. That's just another way to spread bad genes over a larger population. We need to assemble as much information as we can so that we can make intelligent decisions on what bloodlines to breed. The thing is that we need honest information. If a particular snake has thrown dwarf offspring in the past, for instance, we need to know that. It doesn't mean that animal can't ever be bred again, by careful breeding we may be able to breed that trait out down the line. We will never be able to accomplish that if we don't know what we are breeding.
>>
>>As far as captive Indigos never being reintroduced to the wild, I wouldn't be the farm on it. I think we are all in agreement that the Eastern Indigo is in dire trouble in the wild. There are a few pockets of healthy populations, but on the whole, the species is in trouble. It's just a matter of time before the existing good habitat and good populations are compromised by development. Money talks. That's just a fact of life. Indigos are going to lose more and more habitat to development and human encroachment in the coming years. Right now we don't use repatriation with Eastern Indigos for several reasons. One is the threat of introducing captive stock into wild populations. There is a danger of exceeding the carrying capacity of the habitat, which would possibly cause the loss of wild satock as well as the introduced stock. Another problem is the potential for introducing diseases from the captive stock into the wild stock for which they would have no antigens. Another problem is that, in the past, the released captive stock has not thrived for one reason or another. I think we will work through those problems and eventually learn how to successfully repatriate a habitat. I see, at some point in the future, suitable habitat being set aside for this purpose. If the habitat supports sympatric species and has suitable prey items, shelter (Gopher Tortoise burrows, etc.), water sources, sufficient range, etc. but no EXISTING populations of Indigos, then there is no reson that habitat can't be repatriated from captive stock. If and when that happens, there will be a need for reasonably disease-free stock with good, strong genetics.
>>-----
>>We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

You've given me some stuff to continue to mull over.

Doug t

>>>>Doug,
>>>>You are correct. Inbreeding and linebreeding occur a lot in nature. Some of that may, in fact, be beneficial to the species.
>>>>
>>>>My point is that since we are working with a finite gene pool, we need to control how much of it occurs within our captive populations. There is nothing wrong with some inbreeding in captive animals when we know that the genes are good. However, if we have an animal that, for instance, occasionally throws a dwarf offspring or some scalation defect, we would want to avoid breeding that animal with it's siblings or with other offspring from the same parental stock. We have the knowledge and the technology to keep from propagating bad genes, I think we should at least attempt to use it. Simply culling the obviously defective offspring is a good star, but we have to remember that the parents as well as the normal appearing siblings are probably still carrying the gene that caused the defect.
>>>>
>>>>You are correct also, in that we don't want to just randomly mix gene pools any more than we want to inbreed excessively. That's just another way to spread bad genes over a larger population. We need to assemble as much information as we can so that we can make intelligent decisions on what bloodlines to breed. The thing is that we need honest information. If a particular snake has thrown dwarf offspring in the past, for instance, we need to know that. It doesn't mean that animal can't ever be bred again, by careful breeding we may be able to breed that trait out down the line. We will never be able to accomplish that if we don't know what we are breeding.
>>>>
>>>>As far as captive Indigos never being reintroduced to the wild, I wouldn't be the farm on it. I think we are all in agreement that the Eastern Indigo is in dire trouble in the wild. There are a few pockets of healthy populations, but on the whole, the species is in trouble. It's just a matter of time before the existing good habitat and good populations are compromised by development. Money talks. That's just a fact of life. Indigos are going to lose more and more habitat to development and human encroachment in the coming years. Right now we don't use repatriation with Eastern Indigos for several reasons. One is the threat of introducing captive stock into wild populations. There is a danger of exceeding the carrying capacity of the habitat, which would possibly cause the loss of wild satock as well as the introduced stock. Another problem is the potential for introducing diseases from the captive stock into the wild stock for which they would have no antigens. Another problem is that, in the past, the released captive stock has not thrived for one reason or another. I think we will work through those problems and eventually learn how to successfully repatriate a habitat. I see, at some point in the future, suitable habitat being set aside for this purpose. If the habitat supports sympatric species and has suitable prey items, shelter (Gopher Tortoise burrows, etc.), water sources, sufficient range, etc. but no EXISTING populations of Indigos, then there is no reson that habitat can't be repatriated from captive stock. If and when that happens, there will be a need for reasonably disease-free stock with good, strong genetics.
>>>>-----
>>>>We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Yes, many island populations of D. cooperi are inbreeds. Yet they are stable even though the populations are small. Mother nature has allowed for a strong and RELATED gene flow. Not all tight nit populations have Florida Panther problems. ( B.T.W. ,Fl. Panthers are NOT full blooded and have not been for many generations, having become inbred with escaped S.A. specimens since these introduced animals have been held in captivity in Florida!)
And someone mentioned obtaining DNA from shed skins, YES , this is possible and is in use today as a way to obtain DNA. Just put the shed into an envelope with forcepts (DO NOT TOUCH!) and place in a cool ( not cold) dry place. The DNA will stay good indefinitly this way. This is a simple way for ALL you collectors to have DNA material available when someone decides to do a study.

Rob, I have a question. In your statement about disinfecting cages, it seems that you said that captive breed snakes can't build imunity to diseases but wild ones can. If that is so, why? I clean my cages pretty good but I do not buy all of the sprays and stuff. I simply take it outside and scrub it down good and hose it out. Now I do not do this on a weekly basis either like some do. Now I don't work with this everyday for a living such as you do, so please excuse any ignorance on my part. Does the snake really have to live in a bacteria free glass house all of it's life in order to have a good healthy snake? If the captive breed snakes can not build imunity, why? What makes them different than the wild snakes in this regard? And if captivity means it disables them from building immunity haven't we already affected them in way we shouldn't have?

Thanks,
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Gregory S. Hake

Happy Thanksgiving to all,

Gregory, sometimes in cyperspace, what we say is taken to extremes and this is one of those cases. You made some good comments and I completely understand and in some cases, agree with you. Even with disinfectants, cages will never be 100% disinfected (unless you use heavy concentrates of ammonia; I would never do that). My point, if there was need of one, is that indigos, by their very nature and physiological make up, defecate often and most people, I assume, keep their indigos in cages that certainly don't mimic what they typically cover in their natural element (that would take a farm with acres of land). As such, indigos don't have the opportunity to leave their feces behind as they roam their territory. Instead, they are in constant contact with it in a confined area where bacteria can grow very, very rapidly. If this feces continues to accumulated (even in particulate/small sized amounts) this can, over time, lead to many serious health ailments. It does't take a rocket scientist to understand that this is not a healthy environment for any captive reptile; especially an indigo snake. Taking a cage outside and hosing it down will probably get the desired result as a product of the mechanical action of the running water and exposure to sunlight. It is my philosophy and belief that cages should be periodically disinfectant with a quality product. I have done this for many years and have never had a disease outbreak in my collection or the collection at the wildlife center that I run (the good Lord gets most of the credit). In my opinion, to do nothing equates to keeping indigos in suboptimal CAPTIVE conditions...that's just my opinion. Oftentimes, these "I respectfully disagree" statements that people have isn't so much someone publicly disagreeing because in many, or most cases, there is actaully an agreement....its the process or means to get the same end result that may be different.

Ok, it seems I took your statements a little out of context, just as you said. I agree, the last thing I like to see is any reptile swimming in their own feces. Now, I said I don't disinfect like some do but I do make sure I clean the feces immediately (or as soon as I see it) out of the cage. This is a little thing that a person can do to keep the cage in descent order. I use baby wipes to clean off the glass where the feces touched. I used to clean out my cages with Clorox, but I found I would be letting my cages air out for about a whole day and even then you could still smell some. I steered away from that in fear of the fumes harming my snakes. I have thought about the spray disinfectants and should probably breakdown and buy some.

Rob, you are always very tactful in your approach when you respond to anyone, thanks. Hope your Thanksgiving was good!! God Bless You!!
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Gregory S. Hake

this is fantastic!

what a lively group. i think there's a healthy mix of opinions and ideas and it seems that everyone sees at least some advantage to gaining some information regarding the genetic variation in our collective population.

i’ll start asking a few colleagues to see what types of protocols and techniques would best get at our concerns. i’ll also ask about some possible funding options. i hear chuck’s concerns regarding what the feds might want to do with some of the data, but there are scientifically legitimate ways of handling data anonymously that will protect individual identities. i could see some people not wanting it widely known that their snakes are closely related, while those with vastly different genetics might also want to remain anonymous (amnesty if you will). i would hope that the result would be ethical use of the data in future breeding and suggestions for healthy breeding pairs.

have a great thanksgiving all.

matt