Reptile & Amphibian Forums

she finally came.....but i dont think she is true albino....maybe a t+? caramel? any input?

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I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

n/p

keith

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I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

The albino is from Ric Blair.....and the normal is from Tim at VIVID!

i hope you enjoy as much as i do.....

and Jimmy i thank you for gettin me interested in these gorgeous animals!

keith

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I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

The "albinos" of many rat snakes that I've seen pictures of look like hypomelanistics. Depends on what your definition of "albino" is. If by "albino", you mean "amelanism", then that's not an "albino". If by albino, you mean reduction of dark pigment (i.e. hypomelanism), then yes it's an "albino".

Personally I don't like the name "albino" for anything, it's to vague and doesn't mean the same to all people. I'd call that a hypomelanistic Bairdi.

IMO.
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~~~Hurley

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~~~Hurley

but she is gorgeous either way

keith
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I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

>>The albino is from Ric Blair.....and the normal is from Tim at VIVID!
>>
>>i hope you enjoy as much as i do.....
>>
>>and Jimmy i thank you for gettin me interested in these gorgeous animals!
>>
>>keith
>>
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KEITH!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know what you call it. Albino or hypo or whatever but I am definitely jealous.
That little thing is a beauty.
I want one.....wwaaaaaa...............LOL
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

I don't want to throw a monkey wrench in, or anything, but looks like it could be a t+ albino to me. Seems to lack any melanin. I would think Ric Blair would know. Do you have a pic of an adult? I'd like to see it when it makes the change over. It's a great looking snake

TC

That baird has no black at all.

Of course that snake has "black" in it, just not what you are used to seeing. There is melanin there, just in a reduced amount. Biggest tipoff if that its pupil is black. Black pupils are caused by the melanin lining of the retina at the back of the eye that functions to absorb light to keep light from reflecting and bouncing back forward resulting in double signaling. A non-melanin producing snake will not have black pupils, period. The snake's background also clearly shows that there are melanins there. Melanins give you your browns and blacks, that snake has less pigment, so it's lighter, yes, but there is an amount of melanin there.

T-positive albino (sorry, for some reason my plus symbol won't show in the window, shrug) is a term that has been grossly stretched and skewed to mean so many things that no one can follow it anymore. People seem to think that T-postive albino means that it's "reduced in pigment, but not visually an amel". This seems a bit strange to me. By that definition, I'm a T-positive albino, my hair is lighter than black and my eyes are blue showing reduced melanin in the iris. By that definition, hypos at "T-postive albinos" as well.

If you are Tyrosinase positive, you have the ability to follow through on one of the many steps in the melanin-producing pathway. You can test it with the DOPA test, taking a piece of an albino's skin, adding DOPA (the substrate that Tyrosinase acts on to lead to melanin), and watching for melanin to develop, i.e. looking for black to come in. If you have the enzyme tyrosinase (which almost all morphs do), then you are T plus .

Now, T positive albino is a term that designates that the snake is albino, but the mechanism for the albinism is NOT lack of tyrosinase. It could be any other enzyme along the pathway, just not tyrosinase. Whatever the mechanism, the snake should still be albino.

I guess it depends on how pure you are in your definitions. What does albino truely mean? This term as well has been stretched so far that it has lost all meaning except a reduction or loss of some pigment. Honestly, I wish the whole mystical "T Plus Albino" term would go away. There is not just one "T Plus Albino", it covers almost as many mutations as "Albino" save 1, the T-Negative Amelanistic. Hypos won't be T-Negative because they do produce melanin, which can't be done without tyrosinase to my knowledge. In the herp community, Albino covers anything that is slightly hypomelanistic through amelanism as long as a DOPA test shows tyrosinase exists.... which how many of the "T-Plus Albinos" at shows have ever been tested to see that they are T-Plus ? (Not that it's really necessary since most people call light hypos "T-Plus Albinos" and I can about guarantee there is tyrosinase there since they produce some melanin.)

So, I guess in a way, I agree with you Terry. That snake is almost positively T-Plus ...there is melanin there. I personally think the term "albino" is a mistake, but I don't use the term anyway since its definition is so stretched that it is practically a non-definer. If you are comfortable calling a specimen with reduction but not absence of a specific pigment "albino", then you are right on, just know that you've reduced the word to practically no meaning covering a huge range of pigmentation. The only thing it excludes is a totally normal melanin producing animal. Everything from slightly reduced to amel with tyrosinase is then encompassed in the term T-Plus Albino.

People like the term "T-Plus Albino", it sounds scientific and cool and it sells snakes since everyone strives for the magical T-Plus Albino. It doesn't really matter to me and I write this just to get people thinking about what the term really means and what it represents, not in a rant tone of voice. That snake is a hypomelanistic by definition of the word. Hypo means reduced (sure, greatly reduced I agree, but not absent) and mela- obviously means melanin, -ism = a condition of. Hypomelanism - a condition of having reduced melanin.

Is it a Tyrosinase Positive animal? Almost certainly. Is it a Tyrosinase Positive Albino? ...depends on how wide you make your definition of albino. I personally remove the need for interpretation and just dump the term altogether. The only place it has value in my life is in differentiating amelanistics by whether or not the enzyme is present.

Great animal, no matter what you call it. I look forward to having some some day.

As always, JMO.

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~~~Hurley

It is beautiful and i believe all the "albino" bairdi have the same type of coloring......any that i have seen anyway....even a pair from switzerland that came from 2 "normals"

here is the pic of mom.....she looks hypo as well....but still has that "metallic" looke to her with the silver sheen.

i have a het. coming as well.....either way with some luck....i will be producing a few of these in the years to come.....

keith

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I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

I'm going to save this one, Hurley! This is an excellent explanation of the terms. I usually refer to albinos when they are amelanistic. To me amelanism=albinism.
I found the following in the American Heritage Dictionary:

al·bi·no
1. A person or animal lacking normal pigmentation, with the result being that the skin and hair are abnormally white or milky and the eyes have a pink or blue iris and a deep-red pupil.
2. A plant that lacks chlorophyll.

with an interesting footnote:
[Portuguese, from albo, white, from Latin albus. See albho- in Indo-European Roots.]

Most other dictionaries stated something similar, and Britannica even refers to "albinism" as the "Absence of the pigment melanin in the eyes, skin, hair, scales, or feathers."

As for this very nice specimen of biardi, I would also call it a hypomelanistic.

Sacha

That is an excellent argument for hypomelanism. I really appreciate all the information and the time you put into that. If you type like me, it was a major piece of work, haha

The reason I made my comments about being a t+ albino is because I know many herpers call them that. I don't know exactly how many. Let me tell you what lead me to that point of view.

First, I posted a photo of my male Chinese beauty snake, which I used as a breeder last summer. At the time I called it a hypo, even though it was sold to me as an albino from a reputable breeder. I got several comments from forum goers and emails telling me it wasn't a hypo, but rather a t+ albino. I also got about an equal amt. of comments that it was hypomelanistic.

Now with the Chinese beauties, the hypos are more rare, so would garner the better price. But I don't know for sure what this snake is, so I was going to call it an albino and lower the price a little, so as to not take advantage of anyone. According to your definition, it would be hypo, wouldn't it?

Anyway, you've given me a much better picture of what's going on with these mutations. I think the hobbyists are almost 50-50 on this situation, but I probably will lean towards hypomelanism now. And like, Sacha, I'm going to save your explanation for posterity. Again, thanks...

TC

PS: I wouldn't mind working with that morph either. In fact, I tend to like hypos better than amels.

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains ratsnakes and corns

i have always believed hypo to have a reduced black pattern......but not totally gone......meaning that the normal reds and browns etc. are more prevalant......but it would still have black......

in my snake.....there is no transparent areas that would lent to amelanism......your beauty is transparent with a darkened background.....this would strike me as a t+ albino/amel....

here is a t+ albino black rat.....there is definate transparent areas that would otherwise be black.....of course they are not white either.....this would be where tyronaise would be present and darkening that area and ....darkening the rest of the colors also......

am i far off?

keith

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I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

I agree. You're black rat looks like an albino (amelanistic) to me. It has white where the black should be and pink eyes. But after discussing with Hurley over the course of the day, I believe your bairdi is hypo, and I now think hypo is a better explanation of my taeniura also. If you look at my snake again, it has a dark line through the pupil, and like Hurley has said, it has some dark areas with a some amt. of melanin, although not much. Some folks might argue there is no black, so no melanin, but I like Hurley's argument, and now think there must be some melanin in those dark areas. My snake doesn't seem to have any white on it either, that I can tell. Thanks for a great thread.

TC.

(If the plus symbols don't show up again, everytime I say T, that means T Plus...anyone know why my plus symbols don't show on this forum half the time? Shrug?)

The thing is this, T is not a morph, it's not a look, it's not a color. You can't visually look at an animal and say, "Yep, that's a T albino!" T /T- is presense or absence of an enzyme that is one step in the long process of producing melanin. If tyrosinase is not present, the animal is amelanistic, no question. All T-'s are amel, but not all amels are T-. You can have an animal that makes normal tyrosinase (is T ) but has a problem somewhere else in the cascade (lack of some other enzyme or an alteration in a building block or whatever)and yet ends up looking visually identical to a T- albino.

Since you have to have tyrosinase to make melanin, period, all hypomelanistic animals are "T ". So the half of the people saying your snake was T are most likely right (although they don't know either, for sure, since no one that I know of has done a DOPA test on these snakes to prove if they have tyrosinase). The half saying your snake are hypomelanistic are also right. It IS. There is melanin there, very little, but it's there. The pupil is black, the faint black markings are visible, not totally absent, melanin is there. It's just markedly reduced by some process.

You saying it's a different line than the hypos tells me that you guys are dealing with 2 different versions of hypomelanism... If they don't breed true, then they are different genes that produce similar effects. If one is lighter than the other, then you have one gene that has a bit more of an effect than the other. I'd also be willing to bet that if you produced an animal homozygous for both forms of hypo that the result would be additive and you'd make an animal lighter than each individual hypo gene alone, but that's a guess. (It could just as easily be that the double morph version looks just like one or the other.)

If you want to call it a T albino, great. The other one is, too, most likely. Neither is "THE" T albino. That is why I think the term is useless, unless you are defining 2 types of amel, one that has tyrosinase and one that doesn't.

Call them hypo A or hypo B, call them "so and so's" hypo and "another's" hypo, call them "Lemon" and "Banana", call them "Hypo" and "T ", it's all the same. They are two genes that cause reduction of melanin, but not complete absence.

Hurley

i understand what you are saying.....i was just stating what i have witnessed.....the scientific specifics are still a bit overwhelming for me

almost too many possibilities lol

keith
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I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

>>Call them hypo A or hypo B, call them "so and so's" hypo and "another's" hypo, call them "Lemon" and "Banana", call them "Hypo" and "T ", it's all the same. They are two genes that cause reduction of melanin, but not complete absence.
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>>Hurley

Thanks. A great response. I've learned a lot from your two posts. Hope you keep hanging around the forum. Terry.

Gotta agree with Hurly on all counts. Hypo seems more an accurate discription of the animal which is SWEET!

Hope this helps, but it is a round about way of doing it:

PHP treats the plus sign as a space character and it gets stripped out and so far the techs have not found a way to preserve it.

You do, however, have the option of using the HTML code for the plus symbol as a viable workaround to the PHP shortcoming.

The HTML code for a "plus sign" is: & # 4 3 ;
(remember to take out the spaces between the 5 characters)

For example, 1 1 = 2
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phflame

+

OK, thanks, that's an irritating little bug, isn't it? LOL, thanks for the help.
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~~~Hurley

n/p
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I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

np

Maybe next year....but definately on my "wishlist"
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Paula
19 Corns,6 Ratsnakes, 1 Ball Python, 2 Hognose
Snake Addict
www.tlcreptiles.net