Reptile & Amphibian Forums

NOW HERE IT IS! I've been hearing alot of stuff about certain types of milksnake morphs.

Now Albino Honduran's... I've heard their aren't any pure albino Hondurans, That they are the result of an intergrade is this the truth?

Hypo Peublan's... I've heard they were as a result of Honduran "blood" is this the truth?

Please give me known names (not scientific names) of the milks used to produce these morph...

Are there any other milk morphs that are as a result of subspecies intergrages?

~ZF

the albino honduran will go on as long as we are on earth.
They were first thought to be polyzona and later were thought to be hondurensis.
There are pros and cons and most people believe they are hondurensis??????????I guess we will acually really never know?unless the person that collected such animals will pipe up here and say were they were from back in the early 80S????????

anyways,As far as the hypo pueblan is concerned this is a new one to me?I have never heard that there was any honduran blood in there?I have seen the founders and in no way did they suggest of haveing any other sub-species involved in there makeup?

shannon

That makes some scene when you look at the fact that the line across the snout of the Atlantic Central American Milksnake doesn't connect just like we see in the tricolor, peach, and tangerine albino "Hondurans" so I guess this is just a really good intergrade. And the two subspecies do look alot alike so I guess it would be very easy to pull off.
Thanx
~ZF

You can't even base much on a snout ring??its way deeper than that.

You have to remember that way back when most those countries were open to import and the importer never really knew much other than the coutry?
Central and south american milks intergrade like crazy.who's to say a honduran milk is a honduran milk when there's a hundred of them in a barrel?

Like I said,unless you catch it yourself or was there?you have to take the importers word and its probably what you want to hear?

later shannon

I realize it can't be totally based on that, but how many "Hondurans have you come across with broken snout rings. The whole "intergrade like crazy" theory makes a whole lot of sense.

here's a question I've wondered since I purchased my 1st tangerine milksnake.
Are they found like that in the wild? or is the tangerine Honduran a color morph that came about due to captivity?
can you help he with that you seem to be the "milkman"

one more... the striped gene in nelson's or sinaloans comes from which of the two? or is it the combination of the two subspecies?
does any one know?

most of the siniloans/nelsoni that were imported came from a intergrade zone so unless you go catch your own then there are no pure siniloans.There are some pure nelsoni still floating around.
The striped gene has showed up in both.I have some pure old school nelsoni that produced some striped ones.The splotched that applegate works with are pure intergrades but look more like siniloans.

hope this all helps.

shannon

>>here's a question I've wondered since I purchased my 1st tangerine milksnake.
>>Are they found like that in the wild? or is the tangerine Honduran a color morph that came about due to captivity?

this is pretty basic stuff, i think you'd really enjoy reading louis porras' article on hondurans in Vivarium Magazine, Vol 7, No. 5. I reprised some of Louis' observations in an article in Reptiles Magazine, Sept 2002 along with some additional information.

The issue of the origins of the albino honduran are covered by Louis in his article, which addresses the animals bought by Brian Barczyk as polyzona, the fact that the two groups of albinos were traced back to the same point of origination, etc. Some people resurrect stories about what's pure and what's not about as often as some urban legends recirculate on the internet, and with about as much basis in (or concern for) fact.

Check out those articles. I think you can get back issues of the Reptiles Magaazine article by calling the mag; Vivarium was bought by another mag which itself then folded, so i'm not sure how you'd come up with a copy of Louis' article other than checking with some good libraries.

And I look forward to others' postings here about the hypo pueblans. I'd never heard any suggestion of their being hybrids or intergrades. Until I'm shown evidence to the contrary, i believe they're genuine & pure.

There are "albino" pueblans out there that the breeders I talk to acknowledge originated with the introduction of the albino gene into the pueblan from another triangulum or perhaps queretero. They believe that after four generations of backcrosses to campbelli the animals look like pueblans and for all intents and purposes are pueblans. I think once the cross is made you can never get back to a "pure" animal no matter how many times you cross back. Some of those albinos are beautiful though, and until the real thing comes along, if it ever does, they're very interesting. The real problem occurs if the real albino DOES occur, it's going to be much harder to establish its authenticity than with the few morphs that predate the chance of having been created artificially.

imho.
terry

Yeah man thanx for the info. i haven't actually seen a Hypo Peublan myself but in the pix they look pretty pure to me. i have an associated that questions the authenticity of all snake morphs esp. colubrid morphs. i myself have seen some Hondurans that don't look pure at all... they look "Purely manufactured" The ones with the really close bands from neck to tail, or the one with the really wide "white" bands that makes the snake appear more white than yellow or red/orang. I've even seen Hondurans With partial bullseye/bullseye patterns. I guess it all up to the breeder to divulge the purity of his/her snakes.
Thanx again!
~ZF

Acually hondurans are like a box of chocalets?you know the saying.

The come in all kinds of band widths colors aberrancies etc.right from the wild.
So to say that one doesn't look pure??????Whats pure?

Nature didn't make all of them look the same.

Have you ever seen a pure thayeri?

shannon

Shannon,
You have a point about the thayeri. but I've seen Hondurans that appear to have ruthveni in there blood. Hondurans I've owned and have seen have pretty clean bands besides calico Hondurans, but I've seen a certain breeder that has some albino Hondurans with a "ridge" ruthveni look and very close bands like a ruthveni. i do know there are aberrant Hondurans with striped/motley patterns and i do think those are pure, nothing suggests other wise. but when i see an albino Honduran with a spotted/bullseye pattern and a patternless head the first thing that comes to my mind is "unpure" I'm not a milk expert but I believe Hondurans have a look to them and if they don't fit that "look" when I see um, I cant accept the fact that they may be pure till I see some proof.
please give your feed back i enjoy hearing from you!
~ZF

Lasty can you tell me whether the tangerine dream Hondurans are found like that in the wild or is the color change is as a result of captivity.

Well,I would like to see these tight banded honduran albinos?
In the wild they range from 13-26 bands?they also range from dirty tri-colors to nice light tipped tangerine's?

I believe the tangerine dreams were the result of a couple generations of nice clean imported tangerine phases.
The tangerine dreams is were the first hypos appeared in the loves collection.

As far as a honduran haveing a certain look to it is hard for me to swallow.I have produced some very strange looking hondos out of text book adults that are f2s etc........

shannon

I mean it maybe pure but it didn't look pure to me. Do you have an email add. I can email you the pix at I don't wanna post pix of the snake her and possibly upset the breeder, I'm looking forward to getting some Hondurans for you in a few, prob. not next season, I got some Brooksi plans for next season.
~ZF

sure,my e-mail is zonata@highsierrareptiles.com

shannon

If there was a plan to re-introduce Hondurans to their natural habitat someday for some reason, I doubt the extreme hypos or albinos will be the candidates for the release. These morphs were produced in captivity to stay in captivity. Point is, if they originated from a ssp of milksnake that closely resembles a "true" Honduran in form and function, then no one will ever be able to tell at this point. And the breeders selling these things for 100s and even 1000's of dollars each probably don't care at this point either.

The hypo Pueblans look like real Pueblans to me, or close enough that I would never know the difference.

As for Sinaloan vs Nelson, importers in the 70s brought back both, and in many cases mixed and matched. The classic Sinaloan has wider red bands and often fewer triads, whereas the classic nelsoni has wider black rings. Where these two forms intergrade, good luck in being able to sort them out.
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Mark G
Collection:
Beautiful San Felipe rosies
Some CA rosies
Some Ariz mtn kings

>>If there was a plan to re-introduce Hondurans to their natural habitat someday for some reason, I doubt the extreme hypos or albinos will be the candidates for the release. These morphs were produced in captivity to stay in captivity.

Hi mark,

don't forget the first two anerythristic hondurans were both caught, years apart, in the wild. the extreme hypos trace back to "regular" hypos which trace back to the Loves' "tangerine dream" hondos which trace back to a single animal bought in a shop where it was almost certainly a wild-caught import. So those genes, too, at least existed in the wild.

having said all that, i agree with you it's extremely unlikely any of the rare morphs would ever be included in a re-introduction project.

td