Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi

I got this snake earlier this year, but still have to find out precisely which species i'm dealing with here.

It was bought as a house-snake (Lamprophis) which it is'nt, but i begin suspecting it to be some kind og getula kingsnake but can't seem to find one looking quite like this.

Do you have any idea?

It is a forasious feeder and quite active, the animals are measuring a bit under a meter and are very alert to movements.

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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

Looks like a Cal King. Maybe the Chocolate morph or one of the Baja's but it looks to be a Cal.

>>Regards
>>
>>Jan Grathwohl
>>
>>HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
>>HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection
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Thanx to both of you

Will try posting in the "What species" section as well, but also think it has some similarity with California although i have never seen chocolate animals of this species before.
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

Doesn't look like a King to me, but not sure, to be honest. Try posting on the snakes: What Kind? forum. It's specifically for questions like yours. I'll be watching there to see what they think.

Todd

I think that is the Olive Housesnake - Lamprophis inornatus, although I haven't ever seen one that brown.

They are supposedly hardy captives, just like fuliginosus.

There are a few other Lamprophis that look similar to that, but most are in the 40-50cm range. Only fuliginosus and inornatus get that big.

There is also a similar dark Lamprophis olivaceus from further north in Africa which is solid dark, but I haven't ever seen a good photo of this species.
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Chris Harrison

That is a house snake from S.Africa . I am not sure of the name and species but it resembles the Aurora House snake. They have a faint line just like in the pic and they are the African version of a Cal king.

that's not a Lamprophis inornatus.

This is (photo of a friend's snake):

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1.0 Hypo "Coral" Snow cornsnake
0.1 Ghost cornsnake
1.1 Bloodred cornsnakes
2.1 Hypo cornsnakes
0.2 Normal cornsnakes
0.0.1 Amber cornsnake
0.0.2 Caramel cornsnakes

definately NOT a king looks like a house snake to me,,,,,,,,
thomas davis

Keith. I can see what looks to be a very faint stripe down the middle of the back. Something else that tells me it's not a house snake is the head shape. Although small, house snakes have a head shape that is similar to that of an African Rock Python in shape and pattern. Looks like a king to me, just a little thin.

Brandon Osborne

Like what greg said on the other forum. House snakes have eliptical (not circular) pupils. We may need to widen the search.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hi Brandon and Frank

Yeah, might not even be in the two genera, but what might it be then.

Can tell that the animals eats A LOT (normally 2-4 adult mice each a week if allowed to), thats a lot i think relative to their size of just below one meter each.
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

LOOK it UP!

Hi Jetzen

Well thats exactly my problem. I have quite a lot of litterature on kings and have NEVER seen a californiae look like this, and in my experience california's are normally much larger and heavier built than these snakes, but please let me know were you think i can find pictures resembling my animals, that would be great.
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

why FIRST of all african house snakes have entirely diff. heads including pupils. 2nd of all your snake has common pigmentation found in CALI's including dorsal stripe. THIRD and last of all I compared your snakes head with a DIAGRAM in a Markel and Barlett book called KINGSNAKES and MILKSNAKES (barron's)page 10 the drawing looks damn near identical, I M O, so I have to agree with Keith on this one, and I hope this info helps.

if you have or will have one of it's shed skins and do a scale count you will eliminate the house snake

Hi

I will try comparing the scales with the diagrams in Markel as suggested and hopefully you are right, that would solve the case - GREAT.

I know that its not the ordinary housesnake (have a group of those as well), but i don't know enough about the other species of Lamprophis to rule these out for sure (many of them look nothing like fuliginosus in coloration and building)
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

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Hi

What is a MBK? (reckon it is some kind of kingsnake)

What make you think it should be a snake of hybrid origin?
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

MBK-X-Cal is a intergrade king nigrita-X-cal somebody else believes this and it's possible. All i know for sure is it isn't a house snake and it IS a cali or cali cross, POSITIVELY and if i'm wrong so what.

Well, so what you say, it kind of matters to me, to find out what species it is - thats what.

I CAN'T find anything proving to me in your messages that your theory should be right on this subject yet - its theories, and as such i accept them, i would be happy if you were as right as you blame, but i can't find a certain identification, and thats what matter. You seem to neglect the scale i have pointed to you as making this species different from Lampropeltis as a whole - and i have yet to see this scale in another Lampropeltis.

Please please please show me what makes you so sure on it being a californiae, that would make me happy - i actually at the moment is inclined to myself thinking it being something different from both Lampropeltis and Lamprophis and the search is on still.

P.S. I have keept californiae myself before and in my view they don't have that much in common, neither in appearence, nor behavior.
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

I saw in one of your pics a shed skin isn't there a qualified herpetologist in your country that would be willing to ID it for you? That's the only suggestion i can give you AND if you ever get it properly identified i'm pretty sure it will be a Lampropeltis with an extra scale,it's not that uncommon. GOOD-LUCK

Hi Jetzen

The herpetologists in Denmark mainly work with East African snakes and sea-snakes, not much other species unfortunately, but i sure will give it a try
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

nohow is that a king getula ssp imho,,,the sub and pre ocular scales as well as labials def. or not lampropeltis,i still say house snake please post when you get it positively id'd,,,,,,,,thomas

I really would like a dead on side view of the head. The eyes are the real problem here. House snakes do not have perfectly round pupils, being at least to a degree eliptical. Maybe another angle will help. I have a problem with the cal king ID too because it dosen't look right to me. The top of the head pattern of scalation is typical of colubrids-so a side shot would help there too.

Actually if it wasn't for the diet and the eyes, it resembles two other S. African snakes.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hi

What other two South African species do you have in mind?

I will try to get a few more pictures of the animals, showing the head from the side (hopefully tonight)
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

Robert C. Stebbins, Amphibians and Reptiles of Western N. America, NOT the Peterson BUT the McGraw Hill

Hi Jetzen

I don't have that book unfortunately, but have posted a few more pictures in the "What Species" forum, and especially the head-scalation don't seem to fit on Lampropeltis
Link

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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

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Hi

I will try to show it

At this picture i have made a small (not very professional) line around the scale i can't find in any pictures or books on getula, i haven't seen it mentioned for Lampropeltis, on the other hand both internasalia and prefrontalia seems to be quite regular quadrates with straigt lines on all drawings and pictures of Lampropeltis species.

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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

YES i see that one extra scale STRANGE but no big deal can you get another cali to compare with?

Hi

I don't have any cali's at the moment, but have some nigritus, holbrookii and splendida and none of them seem to have that particular scalation. I don't remember having seen this scalation type in Lampropeltis, and it is of importance to identify the species im sure.
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

Niether one of the species I mentioned The slug eater or the other have round pupils. The center scale is an aberancy (lacking mid body scale count) I am still questioning this. Need a full profile so the eye can be clearly seen by a side view. Some House snakes have (nearly) round pupils. niether shot confirms this. Also need a body shot for scale counting.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Yeah Lampropletis dont have that scale there. Ive seen some scale differences between subs of Getula but its usually one is divided on one and not on another. Im thinking I may retract my original Cal King guess mostly due to that odd scale ????

Keith

How many of these strange cali's do you have?

that is not a king i still say a house snake ssp(there are several), but in noway is that snake a lampropeltis especially a getula the scalation is all wrong especially the labials(lip scales)pre&sub oculars also or a give away as well, it would be nice to see some other pics, but regardless id bet the farm its not lampropeltis,,and frankly quite suprised how some of the regulars,you,keith,brandon see that speciman as a king,,,,,thomas

I don't see a Cal King in that pic at all. I don't know what it is, as I am not familiar with House snakes.....BUT a Cal King - I don't see it.

Kerby...

I respect both of your expertise but i think it's a cali with an aberrant extra scale and i will believe that until it's proven diff.

it still boils down to the mid body scale count and also that the eye (as pictured ) is wrong for a house snake (though my first inclination was Aurora). We really need a full profile shot to confirm that the eye is round or slightly eliptical. I don't see a king there. when I look, but the size and food prefs are on. I really wonder if this could be a hybrid.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

We need to know more, if that strange scale is normal then it shouldn't be too hard to ID.

I'm sure the anal plate would be different on cal kings than other species (house snakes, etc...). There are other scale counts that could be done if the snake was available.

Can the original poster post other pics?????????

Kerby...

on the What Snake is This forum. Here's a link to the post. JETZEN, I'm glad you're a little open minded about this, 'cause there is no way it's any type of "pure" Lampropeltis, especially a Calif. I would say that it's not any type of No American specie. Now, if you said hypo nigrita or gaigae, well maybe....LOL. What we need to remember is Jan is in Europe, and the access to unusual snakes from other parts of the world is greatly increased.
More Mystery Snake Pics

count and type of anal plate before i change my mind and thanks for not giving me the JACK-ASS award.LOL!

did I slap you with that award?....I remember posting that some time ago, but I get over things quickly, and can't even remember what it was about! The first of the other pics is of the ventrals, but I do agree with a caud shot. Which reminds me, I need to post a pic of the tail of one of my nigritas. I noticed a while back that it's 4 or 5 singles to start, then 4 or 5 divided, then 4 or 5 single, then divided again to the end. Now that's wacked. Something I don't really think to check.

that's strange deviation for your nigrita,then if you think about it if species didn't deviate then there wouldn't be new species.ANYWAY, yes you awarded me with the JACK-ASS award after about my third post and i been a jack-ass ever since,LOL!Actually i didn't take it too personal because years ago i seen you award someone else with it and he aint so bad either,and about the mystery snake i don't care if i'm right or wrong it's all good fun anyway.

Looking at the new photos I am going to have to go with either a brown L.g. nigrita or a product of the breeder's art. The abberant scale between the prefrontals and frontals is just that. There is nothing I see that is compelling in the scalation to diverge from a king. The mid dorsals are (to the best I can make out 23-24. The patterning under the chin and on the body are also more consistent with nigrita.

It is 100% certain (in my view) that it is no House Snake.

A very odd snake.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

dorsal stripe and cali blue eyes? That's alright tho i'm glad someone agrees that it's some kind of L.g.?.

What blue eyes? What you are seeing is not the eye, but the bluish grey skin that most snakes have around their eyes. Did you look at the other pictures? The actual eye is BROWN. As to the stripe, none of the subsequent pictures show a stripe. It makes frankly, that aspect, a question of poss light reflection...or maybe not. That being said, Black Kings intergrade with Cali's in nature. My opinion still sets on an intergrade-natural or man made.

Ftrank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I didn't say i disagreed with you. I believe the animal has cali blood and possibly nigrita, how much? who knows? i'm very convinced it's a L.g.?. AND i was convinced of that from the begining.

That was not arguementive...just clarification of a couple of points you brought up. I think we are on the same page with this one.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

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Hi

I have seen that you would like to see more pictures, as the snakes are presently at a friends house, i can make him take these in a couple of days, but precisely what pictures do you need?

I reckon a side view of the head, a full body shot and one of the anal plate? Anything else?

Can tell that the dorsal stripe is VERY faint faint in normal light (actually not to see), on the other hand the head is very dark/black in life (marked different from the color of the body).

I hope you have already seen the pictures i posted extra in "What species" forum

I will try making ventral counts as well, do you have any other request for morphological characters?

P.S. The adult nigrita and californiae i have had through my hands over the years have ALL been much heavier built and larger than these snakes, and their behaviour haven't been quite as diurnal as these critters.
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

i doubt its even a n.american snake,but i can say w/99.9% assuredness that that is no lampropeltis, i still beleive it is some type of house snake,,,,,thomas davis

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Hi Jetzen

Well at the moment no, i'm moving to my new house these days, but have not forgotten the request for pictures. I will be getting my snakes back from the guy keeping them at the moment in the next couple of weeks.

I will make a new subject when i have made new pictures, making the issues more recent in appearence.

Kind regards and merry Christmas from Denmark
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HERPBREEDER.com - The Herpetological database
HERPBREEDER.dk - My private collection

MERRY X-MAS to YOU from Eugene, Oregon ,U.S.A.
And Happy New Year too!