Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I thought it might be fun and interesting, maybe even educational, to hear some of your thoughts on recent herp prices compared to the past, as well as any long-term trends you have observed.

I've been into herps for over a decade and WOW have things really changed. Record crowds at herp shows, more species offered for sale than ever before, internet access, more people turning the hobby into a full-time business.

What are your thoughts?

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Sincerely,
Jason
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My Website:
www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes

BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het. Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col. boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss. het. patternless, PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het. Piebald, COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pinesnakes, 1.1 Northern Pinesnakes, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes, CORN SNAKES: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees

I dunno what area you live in, but where I am (Colorado), you're not likely to sell a normal corn hatchling at a show for more than $15 (most go for $10), and you can pretty much forget selling any higher-end morphs. Shoot, I ran into one guy who was extremely proud of his $5 non-feeder okeetee he'd just bought...

That having been said, a friend of mine who lives in Oregon is able to wholesale normal corns to petshops for $20 each.

Ah well... I didn't get into corns for the money. If I had, I'd have quit long ago...

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

So I guess the offer I got recently from a petstore to buy my normals for $25/each was something I shouldn't have turned down, huh? LOL

I really don't want to sell them to petstores though.
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1.0 Hypo "Coral" Snow cornsnake
0.1 Ghost cornsnake
1.1 Bloodred cornsnakes
2.1 Hypo cornsnakes
0.2 Normal cornsnakes
0.0.1 Amber cornsnake
0.0.2 Caramel cornsnakes

A lot of people feel that way about selling their corns to petstores and I wonder why? If its the fear of no info or misinformation being given to buyers, then can't you photocopy simple 1 page caresheets for the petstore to handout when someone purchases a snake.

Something else I find interesting...many petstores refuse to give out the names of their source for snakes (and other animals)...why? at the wholesalers request? or are the petstores afraid of losing the business?
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Sincerely,
Jason
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My Website:
www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes

BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het. Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col. boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss. het. patternless, PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het. Piebald, COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pinesnakes, 1.1 Northern Pinesnakes, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes, CORN SNAKES: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees

Well, they pay about the same price as you and I for the animals. So no, they dont want to lose business. The best Ive ever been able to get is "its from a local breeder" I couldnt get my local pet store to tell me where they got there crickets. I saw the box on the floor and was just making small talk. I asked where they get theirs. He replied "oh, they just come in the mail." I was like no s---!!! But, I guess at that mark up, I wouldnt want people to know either.

EP
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Occupants not paying rent:
7 balls
2.1.10 corns(candy cane, creamsicle, ghost, 6 normal, 4 anery )
1 pueblan milk
1 everglades rat
1 cal. king
1 gray band king
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
1 fish
1 mouse
3.3 cats

i wouldnt want to sell anyhting i bred to a petstore, they tend to take horrid care of the animals. often no heating, no lighting (not imp for the snakes, but for lizards it is..) nowater bowls or misters, feeding retarded things... seems the small ones do it worse than the chains too, the petsore near me... ugh. I onyl go there for feeders, and the only reason im not wary of THAT is the guy has some passion for rats, and keeps those in better condition than anything else he sells. 'tis a horrible liar too. this guy will "correct" me with incorrect data, while i'm telling my bf something like, we cant get two of the softshells b/c they get too big. "oh it wont grow much bigger than that" ... it was two inches big.
this guy has a WC cornsnake in a tank labeled "ball python - $50.00" I had assumed this was just him being too lazy to change what the tnak said from its previous occupant, until i talked to one of the girls there i'm friendly with, and she said he thought it would sell better that way.
People at alot of these petstores wont hesitate to lie about the animal they are selling, even if you DO leave care sheets. those are likely to just be pushed into a cubbyhole somepalce and forgotten anyways. plus alot of the creatures at a petstore go to someone who loses interest and ditches the animal. esp something as cheap as a cornsnake.
Although, i do think my local petshop is one of the worse examples of petstore-cruditude. i know in town, the petland is pretty darn good, although their prices are quite inflated. still, i wouldnt trust 99% of petstores to sell any animals that passed through *my* hands....
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1.3 Dogs (max, tasha, kaya, screw)
1.0 Ghost Corn (Ghost Faced Killa)
1.0 Ball python
0.0.1 Boa Constrictor (Achilles)
0.0.2 Red Eared Sliders
0.0.4 insane tarantellas
2.1 ferrets (Otis, Milo, Monty)
1.0 Cat (Kitten)
0.0.1 Emperor Scorpion
0.0.1 Melleri Cham (Sir Arthur Chamleon Doyle)
0.0.1 Chinese Water Dragon
And an ever-changing fishie tank...

The petland near me is pretty good. I asked them if they would be interested in buying some of mine but she told me to check back after she sold the ones they had. I wouldnt even consider selling to some of the other petstores. One place had a BP for $100 that had a tick in its eye. I mentioned this to a girl and she just chuckled and said "yeah our reptile guy is out of town now." Im actually lucky (maybe). I have a friend whos parents have a pet supply store in Raleigh. They dont sell animals but I may be putting some of my snakes in there. So, we'll see how it goes.

EP
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Occupants not paying rent:
7 balls
2.1.10 corns(candy cane, creamsicle, ghost, 6 normal, 4 anery )
1 pueblan milk
1 everglades rat
1 cal. king
1 gray band king
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
1 fish
1 mouse
3.3 cats

petland is the one 'pet store' place i even consider buying live animals from. Its where i got two of my ferrets, their mammals always seem very happy and healthy, and hte reptiles always look to be in appropriate habitats. i dont think i've ever seen multiple species in the same tank there, except for the birds, but im not sure its bad with the birds. plus they have some basic care sheets written on the walls next to the cages, and hte staff seems knowledgable, and i've heard them tell people "i dont know" which i think is awesome, since most places will just make up something like they think they customer wants to hear.

the petstore near me, this guy... argh its infuriorating... i wanted a softshell turtle, id already looked into them, so me and my bf went there to get one, and i was explaining to him why we could not also get a snapper, one of the more minor reasons i went into was the fact that they both got so big and would need seperate housing, and the guy coems over, and informs me, no, in captivity they will not get much bigger. we're talking about a quarter sized snapper and a 2 inch the-long-ways softshell turtle. that particular KIND of softshell stays on the smaller side, 10 inches or so if i recall, but thats a huge diffrence from 2 inches. this man KNOWS we are herp enthusiasts, and knows that typically, when it comes out of my mouth, i know what im talking about, but still will try to tell me otherwise to make a freaking sale!
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1.3 Dogs (max, tasha, kaya, screw)
1.0 Ghost Corn (Ghost Faced Killa)
1.0 Ball python
0.0.1 Boa Constrictor (Achilles)
0.0.2 Red Eared Sliders
0.0.4 insane tarantellas
2.1 ferrets (Otis, Milo, Monty)
1.0 Cat (Kitten)
0.0.1 Emperor Scorpion
0.0.1 Melleri Cham (Sir Arthur Chamleon Doyle)
0.0.1 Chinese Water Dragon
And an ever-changing fishie tank...

>>So I guess the offer I got recently from a petstore to buy my normals for $25/each was something I shouldn't have turned down, huh? LOL
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>>I really don't want to sell them to petstores though.
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>>

I sure wouldn't have turned that down.
That takes all the trouble out of it. No shipping. No need to rent a table at a show. No bother with internet business.
Apparently you frequent this pet store or the offer couldn't have been made. Or you somehow managed to talk to them anyway.
Is this pet store that bad?
It's no worse selling to a pet store then an individual. You never know what anyone will do once they get home.
I sold a total of 18 to a pet store in another state. I gave a discount for quantity and ended up only getting $14.00 each when all was said and done.
But that wasn't that bad when you consider I didn't have to keep and feed them and $14.00 is a lot better then 0....LOL
I did sell some at competitive market prices, made some trades with others and even gave a few away.
So, heck yes....$25.00 each for all my normals, I would jump all over that....got their number?.........LOL
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Well, I just may decide to take the pet store up on the offer after all if I don't sell them soon. It's a standing offer, so I can always decide to sell them there.

The main reasons I didn't do it is they normally don't sell snakes and the only heat they supply is from hot rocks.

But... now that I've read your responses and thought about it more, I may just go ahead and talk to them some more. Maybe I can get them to change their setups and see if they are willing to give my contact info to buyers. If so, I may reconsider it, as these little guys are literally eating into my supply of pinkies.
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1.0 Hypo "Coral" Snow cornsnake
0.1 Ghost cornsnake
1.1 Bloodred cornsnakes
2.1 Hypo cornsnakes
0.2 Normal cornsnakes
0.0.1 Amber cornsnake
0.0.2 Caramel cornsnakes

>>Well, I just may decide to take the pet store up on the offer after all if I don't sell them soon. It's a standing offer, so I can always decide to sell them there.
>>
>>The main reasons I didn't do it is they normally don't sell snakes and the only heat they supply is from hot rocks.
>>
>>But... now that I've read your responses and thought about it more, I may just go ahead and talk to them some more. Maybe I can get them to change their setups and see if they are willing to give my contact info to buyers. If so, I may reconsider it, as these little guys are literally eating into my supply of pinkies.
>>-----

Amanda,
There was a good sugestion to provide caresheets with the hatchlings. That would be a step in the right direction.
that combined with with you helping them set up proper enclosures in the store would benifit you and them.
They may not want to give your contact info to customers.
They may feel they could be undercutting themselves.
If they know you are willing to sell the snakes to them for $25.00 then you would be willing to sell them to individuals for the same. Considering they will up the price to $39.00 or &49.00 they would be giving business away.
But, you could "innocently" add a website addy to the bottom of the care sheet!!!!
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

I sell to my pet shop and they pay $15 each. I only sell them the normals, snows, amels and anery. I provide a care sheet, a colored picture of both parents and the proper name of the morphs (pics & names on one sheet) that I give them. They put the picture and names up on display with the snakes for sale and give the buyer a care sheet. This way I don't have to worry that the pet shop is giving out wrong info or calling the morphs by some weird name because they don't know what they have. And if the pet shop is seriously interested in your snakes, they should be willing to cooperate and learn what they are selling. Mine does, otherwise I would go to a different one.

Good luck with your selling to the pet shop if you decide to.

what the heck does one expect the customer to finnally pay for a neonate normal 79.99?? a lil much remember a pet shop is likely to triple live stock because of losses and dealing w/ customers and the operation of their buis.
I also think thats most snakes are a lil more appealing with a lil size on em say 4 to 6 mo. old(fuzzy eaters)for the ease for the customer to get an eatter! keep the hobby happy.Chris

I'm glad you posted. I'm thinking about breeding my corns in a couple years and I was wondering if there is a market for hatchlings. I'm definately not in it for the money so profit is not my goal. I love these animals and I would enjoy the process and want to hold some back to expand my collection. I just don't want to end up with 40 or so corns that I can't get rid of. (40 pinks a week add up quick!) On the other hand, I think it would bother me to give away quality snakes who's parrents I paid quite a bit for.
So I would have to just about give away my Butters and Okeetees? Dang! Maybe I should have bought mine from a show!

Speaking of shows, where and when are there any shows in Colorado?
Thanks!

The Colorado Herp Society holds one or two shows a year (www.coloherp.org)... if you want to talk to a Colorado breeder, Sean at VMS Herps is the largest local one I know (www.vmsherp.com).

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

N/P

Well, I haven't had snakes long enough to say much, but from what I've heard, not too long ago even the now common morphs of corns, like albinos, were extremely expensive, in the hundreds of dollars.

In one way I like the fact that prices have dropped, because now I can get things that I would never have been able to afford a few years ago.

On the other hand, if you buy 1.1 of a certain morph for lots of money hoping to make a profit 2-3 years later with babies, you could be screwed by the quick drop in prices. Two examples that I can think of include bloodreds and lavenders. Both used to be pretty expensive (in corn terms) just last year, but this year prices have dropped about 25%, and I'm expecting next year the prices will drop again, though maybe not by as large of a percentage.

I'm currently waiting for other snakes, like ball pythons, to drop in price so I can afford them. As currently there isn't even one morph that is in my price range. Even the recessive gene morphs. And to be really truthful, even the normals (captive bred ones that is) are too expensive as far as I'm concerned.

One thing that bothers me is I'm so used to cornsnake prices (you know the ones in the $15-$50 range) that I cringe when I think of buying another species of snake for even as much as $75. Okay, maybe I'm cheap, but right now with my finances, I can't afford much more than $50 per snake, and even sometimes that's pushing it depending on the snake.

And don't get me started on shipping prices compared to snake prices. With my budget for snakes, I can't afford the shipping price attached to the snake. I have to wait and save my money so I can buy 2-4 snakes at one time just to make the shipping worth it.
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1.0 Hypo "Coral" Snow cornsnake
0.1 Ghost cornsnake
1.1 Bloodred cornsnakes
2.1 Hypo cornsnakes
0.2 Normal cornsnakes
0.0.1 Amber cornsnake
0.0.2 Caramel cornsnakes

Its interesting how bloodred & lavender prices have dropped so much so that every cornsnake keeper can own one. I wish breeders of other species would follow suit. In fact, I bought my lavenders for $50 each last year and bloodreds for around $40 each this year (not incl. shipping).

A few reasons I started this thread...
1) the large quantity of BP morphs at the recent NARBC show (which proves that supply CAN meet demand). The reality is that it takes little space to house ball pythons (especially with new rack systems) so if dealers don't get their prices, they'll keep (or trade friends) the animals in hopes of getting back some of the money the invested....and its not that I disagree...I would be furious if I paid $9000 for a pied BP and then the price drops to $4000 before I had a chance to sell them (that is only if I were in it for profit).

2) a few ads in the classified section which offer $20 discount on some snakes in the $4-500 price range...and I thought....does that really help a consumer? does it really? hmmm...lol...I kinda got a good laugh out of it.

I bought a PAIR of spotted pythons from Kim Bell for under $100 at the NARBC show....I thought WOW what a cool little snake...fits in the palm of my hands and they both had great patterns and disposition....its these type of deals that I absolutely love, and I couldn't have been happier. I only hope that when I breed many of my snakes someday that I can provide that same kind of joy to other enthusiasts.
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Sincerely,
Jason
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My Website:
www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes

BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het. Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col. boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss. het. patternless, PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het. Piebald, COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pinesnakes, 1.1 Northern Pinesnakes, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes, CORN SNAKES: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees

yep

some are the same as 10 years ago.....(cheap always.)

.....most will drop........(new morphs especially.)..

....mice too.....for me anyways...get less for them now than I did 13 years ago..........(people with racks get more easier and dropped the prices)...

yep.......food and shavings and gas and racks and everything else go up and up and uppppp........

....yep........

old....rack with 15 more or less 10 gallon tanks....price of 15? 2 x 4 lumber...at 88 cents each then and 10 gallon leaker tanks for $1.25 or free..........

now....(last night)...new rack for $300.....with 28 kitty litter pans.(*plus $56 for pans)......

...............

corns still run at $10 to $20 for most morphs.......still good buys............
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I have to say this has been an interesting discussion and I just need to put in my 2 cents worth. There is one thing I know is going to be reliable with prices of herps and that is:

If I buy it, the price of the animal just dropped by 75%.

Example: about 7-8 years ago (maybe more) leucistic leopard geckos were all the rage and I found a breeder in CA (me:FL) who sold me 20 or so leucitics and hets for about $75 to $100 a piece. These were gorgeous animals and within 6 months I was ready to sell my $100 a piece baby lizards at my local show. OOPS!!! They were only selling for $40 each now and by the time I got rid of the collection I was lucky to get $20 each for them. It almost makes me afraid to buy anything expensive.

I have noticed though that the prices of the boas and balls have stayed up there but they don't interest me!!! I guess a friend of mine put it right when she told my father I was a "collector" when I picked out what my father thought was the ugliest Orchid at a show one time. I went for a species and not a showy hybrid, because there were a hundred of the hybrids but only one of the species plants there. Most people will always go for the showy, sometimes cheaper, hybrid rather than the plainer species.

I also think that while it was great for me to get my albino emory for way, way less than other breeders are selling them for. I hurt those other breeders because next time I see that snake listed for $300 I'm gonna think well I only paid $?? for mine. Breeders need to stand firm on their prices and not be so quick to drop the price at times. Quantity discounts are one thing buty just because it is an hour before the show closes and you don't want to take that extra snake home you sell a $100 snake for $25. Then the next time you do a show everybody is going to expect that same deal. I found out years ago the 2 best times to go to a herp show are early and late. Early for the best selection and late for the best bargains.

I won't get rich from breeding any kind of animal and that isn't what I want; but I will be happy and have fun. Because of all of this the prices of the animals on my wish list keep dropping. Maybe eventually I'll find somebody to pay me to take them. LOL

Hope my 2 cents helps.
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Joe

"Life is a banquet and most poor fools are starving to death"

1.2 Amel Motleys het Snow
0.1 Snow Motley
1.1 Emory Rats het Albino
0.1 Albino Emory Rat
1.1 Taiwan Beauties
0.0.3 Yellow Ackies
and a Partridge in a pear tree
actually he's a Blue & Gold Macaw

I got into this in 1985 and at that time or within a couple of years of that amels and anerys where $25-$30 so they realy havn't changed that much. It's the newer morphs that are expensive and that will drop quik fo obvious resons.
the lack of intrest in milk snakes nowadays is something I can't figure out very well. Mexican pueblan and sinaloans were going for $60-$90 year after year and then seemed to drop to $20-$35 almost over night. I'm just using them as an example but they are great looking, easy to keep good eaters ussualy . I just wonder if some folks look at the prices and think something must be wrong with them.
On the other hand some animals have gone up in price indigos were around $225 back then . try finding an indigo under$450 now.also ball pythons whern't valued very high at all . There were so many being imported breeders didn't want to compete.
Back to corns. Anyone that thinks they are going to make any money breeding low end corns is probably mistaken. after electric , food , housing and your own time spent, your going to be doing it out of the love for it and not the money. unless your wholesaling the food cost alone will catch up with the value prety quik.

To say nothing about green tree pythons and emerald tree boas. These 2 species are being reproduced in decent numbers, but their prices seem to not drop. I would bet that an enterprising breeders of these could offer babies at $100 apiece and clean up. Of course, if the demand is there at the high priced end,they will continue to sell at those prices.
Best...
Jim

I copied and pasted this line you wrote b/c it struck me as the overall attitude of most cornsnake keepers..

"I won't get rich from breeding any kind of animal and that isn't what I want; but I will be happy and have fun."

The main reason I posted this topic here, on the cornsnake forum, and nowhere else is simply b/c of a somewhat higher maturity level with replies in this forum.

Some people in other forums literally attack anyone with the above philosophy, or anyone who hints that prices should be or could be lower. The reality is that more and more people are into herps for the money and this really has become a money-motivated hobby, which can often lead to hostility and frustration.

Time after time, cornsnake keepers remind me of the reason why I'm into this hobby and its not for the money. Are corn breeders really that different from breeders of other species? j/k lol
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Sincerely,
Jason
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My Website:
www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes

BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het. Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col. boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss. het. patternless, PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het. Piebald, COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pinesnakes, 1.1 Northern Pinesnakes, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes, CORN SNAKES: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees

I most certainly want to get into breeding corns for their beauty and personal appeal to me, not for profit. Now, it would be NICE to break even or maybe have a tiny profit - not all hobbies have that opportunity, but that is the difference in mentality - this is a hobby, not a business for many people.

I like corns for their personality and variation of beautiful colors. There are SO many beautiful colors of corns that I could not decide which was the prettiest, so I bought a variety of colors.

I really like the miamis and I would like to work on getting GOOD miamis with the motley and striped patterns. Miamis themselves are not high-priced morphs, and I will get mostly normal patterned miamis, but I will really enjoy seeing that first clutch that contains the goal - a perfectly colored and marked motley stripe

I also really like the ghosts, the lighter and pinker the better. I purchased an ice ghost and an anery het ice ghost because the ice ghost is lighter and so pink, but this is the most that I have spent on a corn. I really doubt that they will be selling for this much when I am fortunate enough to have babies from them, so I knew that I bought them primarily for my enjoyment and not to make a huge sum of money off of them.

I also like the lavender corns and REALLY like the looks of the lavender motleys, which happen to be selling for high sums of money this year. I hope to be able to actually afford a lavender motley in a few years, and I bought a few hets and possible hets for the chance to produce my own in a few years too (again, the prices will probably drop a great deal in a few years, so I don't expect to get rich if I do have some babies of my own, I will be keeping the best for myself and if there are any left then I will sell those for the going price.) I know that there are quite a few people anxiously awaiting the time that this variety is within their price range.

I also love to see other people's accomplishments in selective breeding. I was blown away by some of the aztec okeetees I have seen pics of - I am not a big fan of okeetees, but the aztec markings REALLY accentuate them. I love the looks of deep, solid bloodreds. There are too many others to mention, and of course, they are all beautiful! And there are so many combinations still waiting to be made, that will make even more variety and possibly even more beautiful animals.

Here is an SMR Miami that is so odd...I have not yet seen another quite like her. She appears to almost have Bairds influence (to some degree).



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Sincerely, Jason
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My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
My collection...
BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

very pretty snake. I hope that mine look that nice when they grow up. I got a pair of miamis het for motley stripe from SMR this year.

Here is my Miami corn from Rich Z



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Sincerely, Jason
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My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
My collection...
BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

Jason,

Nice topic! Here are some of my thoughts: Some prices have been quite stable over the past few years - Okeetee and creamsicle corns for example. This has also occurred in boa breeding - Brazilian rainbow boas and emerald tree boas come to mind.

High-end colubrids have traditionally fallen very fast in price. Albino Hondurans were $3K for one year only, now you can get one for $150-$250. Since colubrids are relatively easy to reproduce, more of each new morph enter the market every year, causing their price to drop. Eventually some snakes (likes the ones mentioned above) reach a "stability point" where the price no longer falls (as long as the breeder has the patience to sell the snakes at market value).

So if you're getting into high-end colubrids to "cash in," you're entering into a risky business. The ball python craze has not helped matters either. The price of BPs is more stable (although still dropping) than high end colubrids and this makes them a better investment than corns or milks. And just to set the record straight, I'm a corn and milk snake breeder and am not trying to "convert" anyone over to BPs.

As far as selling corns to pet stores, I think if you produce a lot of them, it's sensible to sell off the lower-end ones. Have you ever tried selling "normal" corns on the internet or at a show? It's darn near impossible. As long as the store takes care of their animals, a great relationship can be cultivated, insuring "guaranteed" sales every year.

Even those who breed high-end ball pythons have the philosphy that you should work with animals that you like and you should be a reptile breeder because it is what you love to do (see article in new "Reptiles" magazine). If you are getting into the reptile breeding business for cash only, you will soon be getting out (I've seen this happen with dozens of people).

I'm not so sure about your statement about more people turning their reptile breeding hobby into a full time business. Since there are more breeders out there than ever before, competition is very tough. Also, it's very, very difficult to make $40-$50K a year breeding colubrids. So I'm not so sure that is an accurate statement.

One thing that is very nice that Amanda brought up is that eventually most herps will become affordable. I remember seeing frilled dragons on TV as a kid and thinking they were the coolest thing in the world. Who knew that years later I'd actually be able to buy one at the local pet store?

Tim

Third Eye

to take the time to read your reply. It was well-thoughtout and very informative. I couldn't agree more with everything you stated. Thank you for the nice reply!
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Sincerely, Jason
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My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
My collection...
BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

in the snake (colubrid) business and he replied "Spend three million dollars". Corn snakes are awesome snakes but people undersell each other way too much.There's nothing worse than to see someone at a show selling the same corn you have and you bought top of the line breeding stock and their stuff is obviously inferior for a lot less, but this is the USA and that is their right but it sure does kinda make you think about all the work you have done and you can't compete with their prices. I had a conversation with one of the biggest corn breeders in the US about this a while back and he said it is very disconcerting. So all you corn breeders out there keep your prices up or wholesale them out quietly because your killing the corn market.thanks jeff mcclure Cold Harbor Herpetalogical PS Anyone out there know what Cold Harbor is famous for? Don S. you can't answer lol.

But someone selling a corn from a nice bloodline is more likely to sell their corn for more IF they market and use salesmanship at the shows. Prices don't always drive a purchase, even though its still a big part. There are some people that feel all they need to do is place deli cups with price tags on their vendor table at a show. I think alot has to do with personality of the vendor and bloodlines as well. Sure you may get the first time keepers that don't care one way or the other but herp shows have such a following that I doubt that many are new comers to the hobby...although it would be interesting to find out for sure what percentage of attendees are new keepers. Anyway, I've turned down opportunities to pay less for a certain snake species simply because of unknown origin (unknown bloodlines) OR the vendor was rude or wasn't able to answer my questions with certainty. Some dealers simply want prices to remain high so it will take little or no effort to make money actually selling their 'products'. I can think of a dozen examples in business where competition lowers prices greatly and other competitors are still able to stay in business just fine. In fact, I just got an email for an e-saver through USAIR for a $98 airplane fare.....all the other airlines are still in business? Anyway, I'm trying to argue and I'm not a big fan of comparing the herp hobby to business. One more thing...herp shows weren't originally started with the intention of making profit...I always thought shows were started b/c a group of people with common interests wished to share their hobby with one another.

(sorry for any typos...I typed this fast)
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Sincerely, Jason
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My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
My collection...
BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

........I'm *NOT* trying to argue

sorry for the typo

I do like a bargain when I find one, but not at the expense of quality. I hardly glance at most of the corns that I see at a show - I like to look for the showiest examples there. Shows are great because you get to see what you are buying in person and you get to meet breeders coming from other areas, sometimes other states. I *really* like the finds that I have come across at shows - makes me wish that I had more room! But I am so picky that I have paid "top dollar" for some of my acquisitions because there was no competition in regards to quality. I am the person that likes to get "first choice" at the shows and in the ads rather than wait for the end of the show for the "best deals."

Still, one of my favourite snakes is a "common" and inexpensive miami that I got from Serpenco - she is definitely top of the line, absolutely stunning. I can't believe how "cheap" the really good miamis are vs pet quality examples of other colors.

charlene