Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I will go back into hiding. I have been beating. Going by what big breeders say and publish isn't good because back in the day it was thought to be ok to feed iguanas high protien content food. And it seems that most people on this forum like things one way. Anything else is not accepted. I mean if someone can not post an alternate point of view without it causing a fight maybe the person with the alternate point of view should leave. I will go back to just reading and not adding input anymore like I have been. Just isn't worth the aggrivation.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Don't take any of it personal. I sometimes find myself getting worked up over peoples responses too. It's best to just let them say what they want, and you say what you want.
The Dachiu's put it quite well, "there is not always a right or wrong answer" Some people have a hard time accepting that, well, let them worry over it.
You don't have to hide. Your responses are just as important as anyone else's. It's a good reminder to all of us, that what works for one dragon doesn't always work for another.

Look,,I'm rambling again.

The board needs a variety of answers to stuff, just because some people don't agree with you, doesn't make you wrong.

Joel R

1

Just kidding.

I do love that dragon of yours though, Reiko.

Joel R

we can make a trade for one of yours.... you ship first >=)

You wouldn't really trade that guy would you? I wouldn't if I were you. I believe you are joking so I'll leave it at that.

Joel R

1

np

But I hate people putting words in my mouth and making stupid associations to make me look dumb. Yeah no crap that books said iguannas can eat protien before. I also never said that you can breed dragons whenever. Just said to flat out say 18 months is dumb, but now I am saying ah breed them whenever. I didn't say that. If my opinions are twisted by people that have one track minds then I won't share them.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

A lot of the factors you have stated for age/size/health are VERY IMPORTANT in when any animals should be breed.

I think that some of the people on here are concerned when they look at the "home hobbiest" that has a pet dragon 7 months old, always seeking help help for various parasites, worms and other illness and in the next breathe are talking about breeding them in a few months, cause a popular breeder says they have breed at that age or their site shows dragons younger than that breeding.

To equate a breeder that has been doing this for 10-20 years with a new owner of their first sub adult and breeding is like comparing me to Arnold Schwarzenegger in an action film.... I would be in over my head.

Professional breeders, this is their income and life, with LOADS of experience and knowledge to care for the problems that may come up and they know the risk in inbreeding (if they do) and are prepared to deal with the results should they not be good. Still some have been seriously hurt financial by practicing methods that were long accepted and common in the reptile industry and they DO adknowledge they have made mistakes and are seeking answers.

A new owner buying siblings or even unrelated reptiles and thinking they are going to breed at a year old or younger, produce and care for the parents and for offsping the same is dreaming!

I've been in large breeding facilities, excellent lighting or UVB access, supplements on scheduled basis, balance diets, IMMACULATE conditions and the best of medical care, whether by the breeder who knows what they are doing or a quaified vet. And they make sure those breeders are in prime condition. Yes, with this and known genetics(which 99% of new owners do not have a clue of) you do get dragons that are mature at younger months..... but rare is a owner with a pet for the first time going to have all those stacked in his favor.

Dragon breeding should be left to professionals or those committment to a purpose in breeding who have the experience to know what they are doing, the dragons they are breeding (history) and the dragons should be in peak health... unfortunately that is not the case in many private breedings, there are exception, on this forum there are some that meet that, but they are rare.

Final conclusion.... its the owners choice, they should just be prepared for the potential end result and unless they are well educated, it could be a poor one.

But I do not like some peoples one right way attitude as that can hurt dragons just as much as anything else. I do not know to me breeding dragons in this date and age is not rocket science. Much credit is due to the people that first started out keeping and breeding dragons, and have produced the excelent morphs that we have today. I am sure that back then it was rocket science. I keep in my home 12 adult/subadult dragons, my adopted iguanna, adopted water dragon, white's tree frogs, russian tortoises, bell's hingeback tortoise, 8 balls, 2 bcis, 1 brb, and a few other odds and ends plus my almost 60 baby dragons right now. I got into reptiles a little over 3 years ago when I met my wife who had a dragon and 2 white's tree frogs when we met. We are both animal lovers. To date I have lost one white's tree frog, 1 dragon, and 1 boa. I think I am doing pretty well. I do understand the hard work that it is to care for and breed these animals. Am I perfect, heck no not even close. I try to provide the best care that I can to all of my animals. Do I do it for the money, no I do it because it is fun. I enjoy and just want my animals to pay for themselves, that is it. I think that breeding dragons is kind of straight forward, as is caring for the babies. It just takes TIME. But the time it takes to me is worth it because it is fun. I try to share my experiences in my short time keeping reptiles, and my experiences are not always what is the status quo, but the status quo is always changing, as we become more knowledgeable. My whole rant on breeding age being 18 months got started because I feel that this is misinformation. As published in books, and stated by many big breeders. The point I was trying to get accross is that by KNOWING everything that you can about dragons, and their behavior should be the guideline to when a dragon should be breed, not some generic age. Generic time does not allow for variability which is very large in living organisms. I tried to get this point accross and next thing I know I am telling everyone to breed their dragons whenever, or that is what people are saying. And people are shooting down books because in the infancy of iguana husbandry it was said that high protien was good. Or other stupid comparisons which were meant to discredit my opinion. Keeping of reptiles is in its infant stages, and is a constantly changing field. Black and white does not work in keeping reptiles. Black and white doesn't work in biology for the most part. Things are very unpredictable, as is life. Just my thoughts.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

You hit the nail right on the head. It's time. Time 90% of beardy owners aren't willing to put into either take the care of them that they need to, or even the time to LEARN the correct ways of treating their animals - again, it's mostly opinions, but I bet if you took an honest poll of all beardy owners in the US, over half of them would say "What's UVB?" or "$7 incandescent bulbs don't give off UVB?"

Btw, that 90% figure, I'm sure it's a LOT less than that on this forum, but what about the people that aren't on here? The people who are being told all the wrong information by the pet stores, "Sure, calci-sand's great, cuz it's 10 bucks a bag", "Yeah full spectrum means UVB", "It won't have much exercise space, but an adult can live in a 20g tank", "Oh yeah, they only eat about a dozen crickets a day... if they start to look a lil skinny, just give 'em a few pinkies, or pack 'em full of waxworms", and those are actual quotes from various pet stores (not just PetSmart & DeathCo.).

Advising somebody to wait longer, giving them more time to research, before breeding, isn't a bad thing. If anything, it might give them time to wake up to the fact that breeding is more costly than not breeding unless you're doing it professionally.

When just a single clutch can go through 10,000 or more crickets in a month, that's a very big expense, not to mention housing them and providing adequate UVB, etc.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

This board is very useful. People on this board that read it know what their dragons need. Does this mean they provide it? NO but they do have the knowledge. Do pet stores know what they are doing, most of them don't. Is the knowledge these people need to care for their dragons readily available? yes in some well written books available very cheaply. Does this mean people use it? No. Does everyone on this board put in enough time with their dragons? No. At times I feel there aren't enough time in the day to do everything that I would like to do in my animal room, but I do think that I am providing superb care. I do not feel that people that do not know what they are doing things all fudged up will continue to do things all fudged up till their dragons die. People are very irresponsible. This is what goes on with animals. Non fuzzy animals are disposable. Do I believe that no. I have practically got into a fight with a cop over conditions in a pet shop, but he didn't care because there were no dead puppies or cats. I can't imagine how many poor clown fish are dying as we speak. People on this board should know what dragons need so why not post the most accurate information that is available?
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Dude we're arguing for EXACTLY the same thing, why can't you see that? The ONLY difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying is that I recommend to people that they wait til their dragons are OLDER to breed.

How is that wrong?
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

Just because in all cases 18 months is not the minimum age. And it shouldn't be said that it is. Alot of dragons it maybe the correct age. But some it isn't, might be too young might be older than neccesary, and I want people to realize this. I want people to have the most accurate information possible, not just the conservative view of many. Also to highlight the fact that breeding age isn't black and white as it is portrayed by many people. Thought that was the use of this board was to help further the knowledge of the forum readers. That is all I was trying to do I am not saying anyone is right or long just presenting the views of a group of people.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Grimdog,

I agree with you partially. Bearded Dragons can definitely be bred before 18 months. But I also agree with the idea of giving the advice to wait until 18 months of age. The breeding age for dragons is similar to other "age" rules we have in our society. You are not supposed to drink until your 21. You can't drive a car until you are 16. You are not an adult until you are 18. Now, there are a lot of 17 year olds that think they know everything there is to know, or at least enough to be considered an adult. I remember being 17 and I felt that I had things pretty together. But hindsight is 20/20. Now that I'm older I realize I still had a lot to learn. The point is, there are a lot of keepers out there that look at the research they have done and the skills they have learned and think: I know enough about Bearded Dragons to tell if this dragon is ready to breed. I've only kept dragons for a year now and I would say I feel that way. But I have a feeling if I wait another year and look back at how knowledgeable I was at this moment, I'm going to realize that I had a lot to learn. So basically giving the advice that you can breed dragons at earlier ages if you are an experienced handler does not hold weight in a lot of situations. People may believe they are ready to make that assumption now and then realize they should have waited. There is no harm in waiting. It's like a parent advising their kids about sex. Are there people who had sex at 14 in loving relationships and ended up with a positive life and outlook about sexuality...sure. But there are also people who felt they were ready, went ahead and did something irreversible and later realized they should have waited longer. I'm rambling but I think you see my point.

Anyway, this message is not here to shut you up and I hope you don't feel that way. Your opinions and advice are valuable and I hope you don't leave this forum just because some people disagree with what you say. We all have a lot more to learn than we believe.

Peter

Hey, just because one employee at the store doesn't know what they are doing, doesn't mean all of the employees are morons. Yeah, a lot of them just don't know reptiles. It would be nice if they all knew what they were selling, but they don't. It's the buyer's responsibility to research the product so that they are not ripped off. I don't know of many stores where they would tell me to buy the cheaper thing if it was right, when I was considering the more expensive. Well, there is that one autoparts store. Chain petstores just think well, if we lose one customer, there is always another. Small stores realize the value of repeat customers. That's why when I get autoparts, I go the store where the guy tells me what not to get. If I want petsupplies, I go to the home depot.

Those quotes aren't from a single employee at a single store, they're from several employees at multiple stores. Sure, there are going to be one or two people who might know what they're doing. On the whole, the majority of pet store employees do NOT know what they're doing when it comes to reptiles.

I totally agree that it is the buyer's responsiblity to research as much as they can before they even think about buying the actual animal. However, it is the PET STORE'S responsiblity to provide for those animals whilst in their care. If they treat the animals the same way they advise customers to, then I wouldn't buy a damn thing from those stores - which is now why I buy most of my supplies online from retailers who don't sell the animals themelves.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

Ahh..let it roll off like water on a ducks back..
Your opinions are valued as are those that don't agree with them.
The forum can't grow w/o opinions.
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TheClassyLizard

We have been coming to this forum for years... and watched many knowledgeable, sincere people come and go. Many of these people have left this forum for exactly the reason that you are upset now.

You are not beaten. You should not be silent. Your opinion, experiences, thoughts and questions are just as important as the next persons are. Never mind that sometimes your words become twisted or misunderstood by others, as they are there in the posts for reference. We can read.

Sandfire and Dragons Den both need to be commended for their hard work and dedication to this species. And may I also add Pete Weis. Every breeder has experienced the death of a dragon (or illness) and I firmly believe that if there are methods out there to decrease the mortality rate, they are applying them.

Although opinions differ on many aspects, the respect of another's opinion should be foremost. THIS is often forgotten.

Rob & Vickie

Dachiu should be commended as well for all their hard work & dedication to the dragon industry as well. Care sheets provided on their web site as well as a "hands-on" approach (answering phone calls) have provided invaluable insite into the selection, caring, and breeding of the bearded dragon. Thanks Vickie & Rob for personally answering all of my questions and, I'm sure, for the valuable input we have all gained from this endless debate over the proper care of our most valued pets. Teresa (TBK Dragons)

The Dachiu are certainly great breeders. I have never purchased from them. But they do have great animals, and certainly do spend time trying to help out people. I greatly appreciate their kind words. I am just a little guy trying to make my hobby pay for itself. I have great respect for the Dachius, Sandfires, Dragons Den, and all the big breeders that do this for a living. I especially like the fact that they took time out of their busy day to comment on this little debate as I realize from their site that they are trying to vacation.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com