Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay, so here's the deal...

I have never kept any monitors. I am NOT however new to reptiles.

Ever since I first saw the black tree monitor at my local mini-zoo i have wanted one. Then they let me hold it, and it was settled, i had to get one. That was some time ago, and i have been putting off getting one because of space and time restraints.

I do not intend on getting one for another year or so, but i have a LOT of research to do ahead of time. So i figured i'd post here.

I have been warned of their difficulty on another forum, and have been told it is not a good first monitor. But the problem is, according to my plan it would be my last addition to the collection, and therefore my ONLY monitor (with the exception of perhaps a female in the distant future).

What makes it so difficult, why can't it be my first monitor? With all the proper research done well ahead of time, the cage set up and tested well ahead of time, could it not be done? Nobody has really explained to me why i couldn't do it, they have just told me that i can't. The only thing that concerns me is that it would likely be WC and in poor condition from being imported. So the odds would be against me before i have even started.

please point me in the right direction for my research, and can somebody tell me a good enclosure size for 1 beccari?

Thanks a lot, and sorry for the long post.

K1LOS

While I do value reading and learning from others, I feel that when dealing with a more "difficult" species of monitor to keep, when compared to captive bred individuals such as ackies, etc... I think that there is a great deal of experience and knowledge to be learned through keeping monitors. That is why on the other site, we encouraged you to probably start off with a different species, such as an ackie, or something 'similar', as opposed to a tree monitor. Tree monitors are difficult to establish in captivity, due to several factors, including their tendency to dehydrate very easily, and their overall skittish nature-since they're wild caught.

You mention about handling the beccari at the zoo. If it is a monitor that you can handle, I would probably say that members of the tree monitor complex would be the last possible candidate for that, as i mentioned before, they are highly stressed and skittish animals. It can take years for an individual to settle into captivity, and tolerate even your presence, let alone being touched or handled. Tree monitors are best left alone, and not messed with. In time, they may become accustomed to you, and even trust you enough to tolerate touch. Some of my animals have grown accustomed to me enough where they will climb out onto my arm to feed, but that's about it as far as direct interraction with them goes..

While I understand where you are coming from, as they are beautiful animals in my eyes as well, it is just to common thought that people see beauty as being a defining quality of a good 'pet'. These are not pet quality animals by any means, and if treated like one, will most certainly live a poor life, and probably die.

Like I said, caring for wc tree monitors can be a very arduous, difficult, and time consuming job. It doesn't take much time at all for an animal's health to decline if you turn your back on them briefly.

As you stated you are new to varanids, I would highly recommend you check out some other animals, preferably captive bred, as they are far less likely to have the problems and difficulties that WC animals will have(that's inevitable).

Just my opinion, but I'm sure others will agree with me, in that tree monitors do not make good first time monitors... Cheers, good luck,

bob
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TheOdatriad

I saw the pictures of the "first stage" you had posted, just wondering if you have any new pictures of the two enclosures.

Thanks,

-Andrew

Here are some pics of the completed enclosures. Keep in mind, that the branches that I have in there are temporary(too skinny/thin in my opinion), until my supplier of Wax Mytrle branches(the wood that the fake ficus trees are made with at silk plant suppliers-what I've been using in my other tree monitor enclosures) gets a new delivery in from Florida. Anyways, here's some pics of the completed cage... Enjoy..






The only other things I'm waiting on, are some more misting nozzles to arrive, to hook into my current system in the room, as well as a bunch of cork tubes(thin diameter ones), also which I am getting from my local silk plants warehouse(for real cheap I might add)..

Anyways, thanks for looking, have a great Thanksgiving... Eat a lot of Deep Fried Turkey.....mmmmh... Cheers,

bob
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TheOdatriad

Let me first say not to do this today, it is Thanksgiving so relax, eat lots of Turkey and enjoy. But when you get a chance I would love to see your misting system setup. Also a couple shots of the top of the enclosure would be great.

I am hoping to get into tree monitors in another year or two, I think they are fabulous animals, atleast the pictures of yours have been. But I need to get a bit more experience under my belt (and money) before I attempt such a feat. So I'm going to be picking your brain alot over the next year or two and stealing all your ideas (hehehehe).

Happy Thanksgiving and thanks for the pictures.

-Andrew

Where do you get your wood (branches) from and do they have an online presence? Thanks again.

Hey andrew...

I'm always here(or email) to help you out however I can... About the branches, no, the place I get from does not have an online presence, as they deal mostly with businesses, ie. hotels, malls, etc... But I am sure if you look up silk plants or something along those lines in your yellowpages, you'll find a place in your area that deals with silk plants. If they make their own trees, they should have/or have access to the wood that I am referring to..

However, wood from outside is just as good, it is just that I am at a disadvantage up here in the NE, as the majority of 'clean' branches that have a twisted, or windy look to them. The majority of the trees around me that have the 'clean' look to them(no flaky bark,no abundance of bugs, etc....I like the clean look of maple, but the branches are too straight, and do not divide/fork off too much) are too straight, and not of my liking. I can usually get a big 6' branch of wax mytrle for pretty cheap, and is worth the expenditure, even though I can grab any old branch from outside and use it...

It's kind of funny, as I am told that wax mytrle down in Florida is a weed- it grows everywhere and is not an attractive landscape plant by any means.. However, silk flower/tree companies pay people pretty good money for their "weeds" on their property... It's like gold in the faux foliage industry...

I'll try to take some more pics later today, if I do not pass out after 'the feast'. mmmmh.... haven't had SPAM in so long...mmmhhh... hahahahah.. Take care,

bob
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TheOdatriad

Thanks Bob. I have a crepe myrtle that just popped up in the backyard actually, and they do grow like weeds (and act like them). I pull them like weeds while they are young. I think I will let this one grow to a nice size and use it for the wood. And along those lines start looking up other weed-trees we have here to see what might work out good for branches.

Have you ever tried live plants in one of your enclosures? I would think the heat, light and humidity would allow many vines to florish and provide tons of cover (and leaf litter) for your monitors.

-Andrew

crape myrtles are a bit different than wax myrtles, but yes, I am well aware of the weed like quality of Crape Myrtles. They are in fact one of my most favority ornamental trees. I suppose that they would make a good candidate for that.. As it's growing, start cutting the tips off, to encourgate the plant to branch off more as it grows... You will have a tree with many forks and bends, etc.. if you train it right...

As for live plants, yes, I've tried it before with my beccari. I tried pothos, due to its hardiness and apparent unability to be killed.. While tree monitors aren't that big, they can squash the plants as they move around during the day, but their nails are so sharp, they tear up the leaves and stems... While pothos does bounce back, and recover easily, i just found it as being more of a pain... I choose to use the fake plants... easier to take care of..hahahaa.. I do have some that are "state of the art" and high quality, where you honestly wouldnt' be able to tell the difference if it were real or not..kind of expensive, but I like to dress my enclosures up for aesthetics, as well as function/efficiency...

Cheers Andrew,

bob
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TheOdatriad

I think i can handle the dehyrdation factor because i have been able to succesfull keep a chameleon for some time now. Hydration is a big factor with them. Besides, spraying one more cage wouldn't be much of a problem. I'd just spray them both at the same time.

Handling isn't really an issue, again, its the same thing with chameleons. Handling causes them stress, which will kill them quickly.

I am not saying that tree monitors are the same, but some of the issues that come with the husbandry are.

K!LOS

Well, the point that I was trying to get across is, why start out with a wild caught animal(probably the most difficult of the wild caught monitors to establish and get healthy), if you've never kept monitors before? I am simply suggesting that you should start out with a more hardy monitor species, learn about their behaviors/feeing responses/breeding behaviors, etc.. Really learn what a monitor is, and how it lives. This is invaluable information that you will never understand by reading publications, books, or hearing other people's experiences.

Monitors in my opinion are unlike any other lizard species, or at least the ones that I've kept/interracted with. I think that before jumping into a rather difficult species to care for, you should start out with one of the easier, CAPTIVE BRED species, to get experience first, kind of like a prerequisite at a University..you don't jump into Vertebrate Endocrinology without taking basic introductory biology and zoology courses.... It is all too often that people buy these animals on impulse, without previous experience or knowledge of the animal/similar animals. It is quite sad to say, but I would estimate at least 80% of the tree monitors imported into this country die within their first year, because of their difficulty in establishing them. Usually people who buy them just because they're beautiful.

All I am saying is that tree monitors are among the most difficult animals to establish, and without prior knowledge/experience with monitors, you may have difficulty with an individual. Perhaps if you are able to find a super Long Term captive, you may have better luck. Unfortunatley, these animals(super long term captives) very rarely come around and are offered for sale...Males are also better choices for captives, as they have proven to be stronger and slightly more tolerant of mistakes than females...females die off quickly if something changes, or if you turn your back on them briefly...

Does anybody else agree with me in that tree monitors are among the most difficult of the WC monitors to establish, and that they typically do not make good "starter monitors"? I feel that I am all alone here...hahahahah...

Take care, whatever your decision, I wish you the best of luck..

bob
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TheOdatriad

I say get one if it is what you really want, but make sure you have the time and patients for it. I built a cage with beccari in mind, but I decided that I wanted a monitor that was more active, easier to handle, and would not pe a pain in the a$$ to keep, was a lot more durable, and would not hide most of the time. I ended up with an younge argus and I made the right choice. Now I have 2 of them plus other herps and I can keep them all for about the price I would have paid for one beccari and its setup.

Tree monitors are very cool. I love to see Bob's picture's of them. For me however, I will stick with the garbage disposal and bulldozers of the monitor world.
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Ed

There are chameleons, pythons, and monitors in my jungle room.

Well, it seems that you have gotten a good deal of input - it just may not be input you like ...

Fact is, if you're hell-bent on a black-tree there isn't much anyone here can do to dissuade you.
Odatriad has pretty much covered all of the terrain you need to consider. They are primarily display-only animals (if they are visible at all). They don't tolerate handling in the pet sense. The tree monitors are amongst the most nervous and easily stressed of the varanids. The mortality rate for imports is high. It will require veterinary treatment upon acquisition. It will require a custom-built enclosure at least, 6'H, 4'W, and 2'D that will maintain high humidity, have numerous hide spots and be a pain in the a$$ to clean - which you will have to do often, to avoid problems with bacteria, mold, and mildew due to said humidity.

Bottom line; the odds are against you. If your expectations are realistic - and nobody can quantify that but you, then go for it. Just be fully aware that you are jumping into the deep-end. If you make the investment of close to a grand between enclosure, equipment, cage furnishings, and the animal, only to be frustrated by the fact that you rarely see, and don't get to handle the animal, then as Odatriad has pointed out - I would strongly consider another species. On a personal note, I have wanted to keep tree monitors for a very long time. I do not have the resources to do so properly or successfully. Consequently, I have never kept any Euprepiosaurus species.

Regards,

Don M.

I have to say that I agree with everything that Bob said. You are probably choosing one of the hardest animals to acclimate. When I wanted to try to breed Emerald Tree Boas, I first started with Amazon Tree Boas. This was for two reasons, first off Amazons were cheaper. They are also far more forgiving. After I mastered them I bought Emeralds. I also started with CBB. This is really not a viable option with Black Trees. Almost all are wild caught. They come in with some really nasty parasites that could kill off your entire collection! They are also very dehydrated.

I have owned Black Tree Monitors for less than six months, so I am no expert. But I have taken fecals to the vet eight times. One each month, but two each month in the beginnning. The first two were full of Amoebas, and Nematodes. I feel these were relatively good imports too. So, I had to treat them with drugs. But this was difficult because I did not want to even look at the animals more than necessary. They stress very easily. So I had to inject the drugs into live pinky mice that were fed to the monitors. I also had to keep them separately, and well hydrated. By the second month, there seemed to be nothing in the fecals. Just to be safe I have taken one fecal to the vet each month. This is at a cost of $45 each. So they have gotten pretty expensive. But they are worth it.

As for handling, I have not touched them. I even have extra cages so I can clean their cages and give them as little stress as possible. This month I put them together, and I can tell they get along. They also seem to enjoy the company of other monitors. They are still cautios when I am around, but both will finally will take pinky mice, or insects off of tongs reliably. One still looks a bit thin, but has actually been eating much better since I put it with another. As for the warnings, they are all right. Black Trees are super difficult. So I too would recommend trying ackies first.

Could you have success keeping them as a first monitor? Yes, but that is like saying that you could learn to be a mechanic on a Ferrari first. I am sure that you are an intelligent person, and would do research. But these monitors are for someone who knows about monitors. To go to your chameleon example, do you think you would start keeping Parsons Chameleons? I think a Veiled would be a better first choice. All animals are different.

I also realize what you are saying. People are telling you not to start with these, but why not. You have success with everything else. Of course once you know how to keep something it is easy. Right? Well I know lots of experts who know how to keep Black Trees. Some of them have kept some for years, and then lost them due to a bacterial, or parasitic infection. These are people who have had several. This is a common story. If you decide to keep them is up to you. But I feel this is good advice: start with ackies first.

Good luck, and if I can help in any other way let me know.

Howard.