Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,
Anyone know how potent the venom of Bush Vipers is? Is it powerful enough to send someone to a hospital?

-Andrew

all front fanged can send you to a hospital or moruge if you have a reaction to the venom or antivenon

Thanks. I think if I were to get a bush viper I would have its venom sacs removed. Do you know how I could go about doing this?

-Andrew

Meant to say "glands" and not "sacs". Just couldn't think of the word at the moment.

-Andrew

First off, let me answer your initial question: Yes, Atheris sp. can send you to the hospital, and fatalities from some species (A. squamigera) have occured. There is no specific antivenin for this genus, but some have suggested trying Echis sp. A/V for bites, there might be some cross reactivity...

And now to your last comment...
"Thanks. I think if I were to get a bush viper I would have its venom sacs removed. Do you know how I could go about doing this? "

Getting "the venom sacs removed" is not a very admirable thing to do. You aren't neutering a dog here, you're MUTILATING a snake. Venomoid surgery has ZERO, ZILCH, NADA benefit to the animal itself...it exists solely for the greedy human's benefit. You would be hard pressed to find a vet willing (or even qualified) to do such a procedure, and if you buy a venomoid, will most likely be getting an animal operated on in someone's GARAGE. ILLEGALLY. Often, no pain medication or anesthesia is administered, so the snake suffers the equivalent of someone cutting open your face, removing your tonsils and wisdom teeth, and stitching you back up...all WHILE FULLY CONSCIOUS. Often times, the snake actually dies from infection due to unsterile tools (like Xacto blades) used to cruelly cut into the animal. For every one "venomoid" that lives, I would guesstimate that 4 DIED.

Aside from the ethical concerns on doing that procedure on ANY SNAKE, Atheris sp. don't make good candidates for it anyway. They are very delicate snakes and if you subject it to that surgery, you will most likely kill it. I don't even think I've ever seen a venomoid Atheris sp. for sale before, and this would be why: they are simply too delicate to butcher like that.

Would you remove the claws and teeth of a lion or tiger so you could keep it as a "pet"? If you say yes, then you probably have no problem acquiring a venomoid, and there is little or nothing I can say to change your mind. I can tell you that keeping venomous is NOT HARD TO DO, pending you are willing to acquire the skills, tools, and experience neccesary to do it safely (which again, IS NOT HARD TO DO). Do yourself AND the snake a favor, learn the proper skills and techniques in keeping VENOMOUS snakes, and DON'T get a venomoid. It will be 1000 times more rewarding in the end. Is there a risk in keeping venomous? Sure. There is also a risk in driving to work in the morning, skydiving, bungee jumping, and countless other things people do on a daily basis. Basic safety protocols are invaluable to a venomous keeper, and are a must. But the pride and joy you will get from keeping a beautiful animal that is INTACT will be worth it.

Venomoids are damaged (or rather, abused) goods. Don't support the trade by getting one.

How in the world could you compare having the venom glands removed with removing the teeth of a lion? Its no different than removing the scent glands of a skunk, and I guess you consider that "butchering" too? A friend of mine owns a pet store, and he keeps his pet mojave rattlesnake in the back of the shop. He took it out and showed it to me once, the thing was tame as a puppy dog. When he got the snake a couple years back, he had the venom glands removed. This ended up saving his life, he reached into the cage one day to do some maintenance and the snake tagged him. This guy isn't a person who would have someone in a garage slice open the snakes face. He told me he had a vet do it.
It has had NO effects on the snake whatsoever. The snake is big and healthy, and still growing great.
I dont know why you would think that I would have somebody conduct the procedure so inhumanely.

-Andrew

You say that your friends snake suffered no effects whatsoever as a result of the surgery. Can you feel the pain the snake went through during and after the surgery? No.

The argument many of you pro-venomoiders put forth is "the snake is doing just fine without it's venom glands". Sure. Fine. You would do just fine without your ears, but I somehow doubt you're gonna let me come and cut them off. Or what about your toes? Don't need them to survive. Can I remove them from you?

Ever had invasive oral or dental surgery? Even with pain meds, it hurts, right? During and after. But it was done for a reason, and benifitted you in the end. Please tell me what benifit the snake recieves for the pain it endures during venomoid surgery, and I'll eat my foot. What? Can't come up with one. I thought so. Because there isn't a SINGLE benefit the snake recieves from venomoid surgery. It is a purely elective surgery that ONLY benefits you, the irresponsible, lazy, and cruel "herper".

Yeah, it doesn't benefit the snake, no arguing with that. But it does benefit you, greatly, because if an accident were to happen, like they always do, and you got tagged, then you wouldn't have to worry about going to the hospital, having your life at stake, and paying hospital bills. There is nothing wrong with having the surgery performed AS LONG AS IT IS DONE PROPERLY. Once again, I would have the vet put the snake to sleep for the procedure, and see if there is some sort medicine that they could give the snake to ease any pain afterward.
And I have had oral surgery, root canal, crown, and fillings. And guess what? The procedure was done properly and there was no pain.

-Andrew

A responsible keeper knows and accepts the risks involved in keeping venomous snakes. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen buddy. You accept the risks involved in driving your car, right? Sure, there are things you can do to minimize the risk of getting injured or dying, like wearing a seatbelt, not driving intoxicated, etc. These things do not eliminate the risk of you dying or being injured while driving, yet you still assume the risk. Using proper equipment, following proper saftey procedures, USING COMMON SENSE all help greatly reduce the likelihood of a venomous keeper being bitten. Again, the risk is still there, but if you want to involve yourself in something, you should assume the risk.

Reptile pain management is a relatively new field, and not perfect by any means. Cutting into the side of a snakes head and removing large portions of it's anatomy is probably somewhat more painful than removing some teeth or filling a cavity. Subjecting an animal to a purely elective procedure because YOU are too lazy or irresponsible or apprehensive to learn the proper skills is UNETHICAL AND CRUEL. If you can't learn the proper skills and take the time to do so, you shouldn't be allowed to keep the animal. Simple. But for venomoiders, the desire to keep a venomous snake AT ALL COSTS far outweighs any of your ethical concerns to the animal. No suprises there.

I dont care what you think. I didnt ask for your opinion. I want to keep one of these snakes, but I do not want to have to worry about a friend or family member being injured. I dont want to have to have my life, a friends life, or a family members life at stake, I dont want to pay the high hosptial bills. I dont call that lazyness, I would call that common sense. I dont want to hear about anymore of your opinions about this. They are worthless to me.

I was asking about how I could go about getting this procedure done, for example, if anyone knew of a vet that was very good in the field of reptiles, etc. Stick to the topic.

-Andrew

I will begin by saying I do not know where you are and I can honestly say I do not know what vet would be the best to have this procedure done anyway. Keeping a snake is 100% your choice. Driving a car is your choice to some extent but it is really limiting on you life if you choose to not do it. Riding a motorcycle increases your risk and accomplishes the same thing. To some it is more rewarding. If keeping snakes is a choice you want to make and you feel this hot will be more rewarding then you should minimize the risk in a way that does not hurt the snake. Have this thing is a secure and locked cage in a secure and locked room. Prop the door while you are in there so you have more room to escape. Have tools at hand both in and out of the room. This is like wearing a helmet and other protective gear when you ride your motorcycle. A venomoid surgery would be like restricting the throttle and putting training wheels on your new Harley (or whatever fast bike you get). In my opinion...if you need to do that then you are too young to get a snake without your parents with you and nobody needs to worry about it anyway.

"I want to keep one of these snakes, but I do not want to have to worry about a friend or family member being injured. I dont want to have to have my life, a friends life, or a family members life at stake, I dont want to pay the high hosptial bills. I dont call that lazyness, I would call that common sense."

No, I call that wanting something without wanting to accept the responsibility and for it. That is not common sense. Go get your venomoid, there is nothing I can do to stop you. But hopefully one day you'll consider the ANIMAL before you consider your ego. " I want, I want, I want", that's all you venomoiders know how to say, but you are unwilling to accept all that comes with it. That is why you guys get no respect from the true venomous community. Good luck in your quest for mutilated animals.

amen!

Andrew:

Here's something to read that answers you basic question, which seems to have been lost in the ensuing exposure of you unethical stance supporting venomoids. I keep Atheris, I accept the risks involved with keeping species with no available antivenom.

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/28

I have no need to shread you any further, my collegues have done a beautiful job already.

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You can't enjoy your collection if it kills you.

Hey,
Nice article, thanks. That guy was pretty lucky to make it out alive!
Seems like(and obviously) the number one rule here is you can never be too careful.

-Andrew

P.S. Nice pic!

Thanks, Yes he was lucky..never let a Doc bully you into a treatment.

Al
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You can't enjoy your collection if it kills you.

If you can never be too carefull then you will not allow one to enter your home. You want to take on the challenge of keeping this animal. This means you should be one that wants to learn all they can and they cannot gain more knowledge and desire unless they are a keeper. You should understand more than anyone that a fully intact individual is by far the best means and you should do as my post suggested with a "helmet" and not "training wheels". I understand what psylocibe stated and you may not like it. But I think you are beating yourself to support your stance and it really is not what is in your heart. Try and care for the animal as much as you do any human you are trying you minimize risk for. I know you can make risks so low that no human would be at risk if you just put the effort in.

P.S. Psylocibe...does that mean blue and white? just curious

All I really got from Psylocibe was that I was an idiot, and an animal mutilator. Ive been around snakes my entire life, I am not that stupid.

-Andrew

I believe it does mean blue and white...but I chose it because I have (actually HAD) a passion for the genus Psilocybe of mushrooms...also known as "magic mushrooms". Yes, hallucinogens. I stopped using them a few years back because I felt I'd gained all I could from them (I started out using them recreationally, ended up using them sacrimentally). I feel no after effects such as flashbacks, hallucinations, or whatever after I ceased use. I don't recommend drug use to anyone, but certain drugs I feel can benefit a user if used responsibly, and as an homage to my old fungal friend, I use the name psilocybe as my user name on most forums. I stress, SINCE I STARTED WORKING WITH VENOMOUS I HAVE NOT CONSUMED ANY HALLUCINOGENS! That chapter in my life is closed, but I certainly don't regret my affair with the genus Psilocybe

By blue and white I meant the mushrooms...as they are "bruised" blue and white. I just didn't want to come out and say it lol. I was just curious. And I agree with you...venomous snakes and mushrooms do not mix.

Yes, some species of Psilocybe's do stain blue when handled.

It's common sense that tripping while working with venomous snakes is a no-no. I still drink alcohol (which in my opinion is WAY more dangerous than any mushroom, having done both), however you'd sooner catch me in a tutu performing ballet in my kitchen than find me intoxicated on ANYTHING while working with a venomous snake. Keep in mind I stated that I stopped because I felt I'd gained all I could from them. I didn't neccesarily stop because I started working with venomous snakes, because I actually stopped around 6 months before really getting into venomous. I probably would have anyway, as it's hard for me to find 6-8 hours for me to take mushrooms for me now anyway, but I didn't cease purely because of my decision to get into hots. It just kinda ended up working out that way.

You take off on a flight and when you return, things are never the same as when you left. If you like where you are..then don't take off. It is not hard to find me hanging out with Jose Cuervo but knocking on the door of a smurf house just ain't happenin. Not since the dorm days anyway.

I wanted to make you aware, that just because a snake is supposedly venomoid does NOT mean that it will REMAIN that way. In certain species, if the ENTIRE gland is not removed, there is a CHANCE that the gland will GROW BACK! If your goal is to keep your family safe, I would recommend a harmless pet.

Look at all the scratches on her chest...(does this animal not give you the chills of fear?)

I THINK they may be the best pet for some people. They eat dirt (readily available) keep them cool (in the fridge). They do not bite, scratch, or have anything that can be removed....unless you accidentally break one in half, and then you get TWO! Perfect pet I say!

It does not matter how much experience you have with snakes. You must put tons and tons of hours into learning the correct ways of keeping venomous. Ask any long time venomous keeper. There is no way of ever knowing everything about them. All it takes is one millisecond and it could be all over. Thats why you need 1000% concentration. If you cant keep your concentration in any way then dont handle anything venomous. Any venomous snake (with or without) venom glands must always be handled and treated as it has venom. Many people buy venomoids as an entry into the venomous field. This is totally the wrong thing to do. Many become too complacent and when they actually get a true "HOT", they get bit. This is another reason the true hot keepers hate venomoids. It is just dumb people do dumb things that is going to outlaw keeping hots and eventually all reptiles. My advice for anyone wanting a venomoid is to look at some pics of the surgery and that should change your entire mind on it. It is an absolutely brutal practice!!

And where might I find these pictures?

-Andrew

Try here:

Mamba Rescue

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You can't enjoy your collection if it kills you.

thanks phobos!!! thats exactly the site i was going to post!!

Seriously, whoever tried to conduct the surgery on that snake had absolutely no clue what he/she was doing. Thats rediculous.

In regards to Kungfu's privious message posted Nov 25, 2004...

"I think if I were to get a bush viper I would have its venom sacs removed.."

First of all let me say that I keep arboreal reptiles almost exclusivly (hence the name "ArborealAddiction). The majority (if not all) arboreals, as all exsperienced keepers know, tend to be very delicate, sensitive animals. With that said there is good reason why you will never see a venomoid Atheris. I do not condone the practice of venom gland removal of ANY snake, however Atheris particularly WOULD NOT survive it! If by an exstreem stroke of luck a bush viper did survive the operation, the trama of such would be more than enough of a persuation to convince the animal to starve its self to death. Personaly I think the perfect reptile for KungFu is a green anole lizard. The have no glands to remove, and they live in trees! However I still would feel a little bad for the poor animal.

earlier in the thread, my first post to him i think...

"Aside from the ethical concerns on doing that procedure on ANY SNAKE, Atheris sp. don't make good candidates for it anyway. They are very delicate snakes and if you subject it to that surgery, you will most likely kill it. I don't even think I've ever seen a venomoid Atheris sp. for sale before, and this would be why: they are simply too delicate to butcher like that. "

He chose to ignore me. Go figure.

n/m

Well said. I diddent see that post, but like you said "go figure." I hate to think about this kid getting his hands on a perfectly healthy bush viper and butchering it. Hopefully if and when he goes about doing this thing, he dosent post a question on here regarding why his Ateris died. However I dont think it will be long before "told you so's" are in order.
Thanks, Shane.

Especially after you get their sticky toe pads surgically removed. It makes handling and cage maintenance MUCH easier! LOL

First off, I don't believe I EVER called you an idiot in my posts. I did call your friend who has the venomoid mojave an idiot, and that is because, and I quote you:

"When he got the snake a couple years back, he had the venom glands removed. This ended up saving his life, he reached into the cage one day to do some maintenance and the snake tagged him. This guy isn't a person who would have someone in a garage slice open the snakes face. He told me he had a vet do it."

You imply that the only reason your friend didn't get envenomated was because the snake was venomoid. That in turn implys that your friend would have done the same action he did WITH A VENOMOUS SNAKE! Sticking your hand into a cage with a venomous snake to "do maintainace" is STUPID! Your friend is AN IDIOT!

I'm assuming that you don't currently own any venomoids. Hence, any comments I directed towards venomoiders doesn't actually apply to you...yet. If you do get a venomoid after all the arguments you've heard on this thread, then yes, I am calling you an idiot. If all the information you've gotten from me and the kind anti-venomoiders here changes your mind, I call you "enlightened"

as for calling you an animal mutilator, it is my opinion (and I'm sure most others here) that anyone who supports a trade that mutilates animals like the venomoid trade does, is just as bad as the people who do it themselves. Hence, if you support venomoids, you are an animal mutilator (in my humble opinion).

He reached in to grab the water dish, thats it.
Im done with you guys, and this forum. I didnt get a whole lot of help here. I will find the rest of my info on the net.

-Andrew

"He reached in to grab the water dish, thats it."

And that was stupid! What I've been saying all along!

As for leaving with your panties in a wad, you shouldn't be suprised if you come to a VENOMOUS forum and start talking about how you want to cut up snake and you don't get a warm response from the other posters...

that's it. The scary part is that these people don't realize that there is something wrong with this and that the only cure for their stupidity is to remove the venom glands from a snake.

that's EXACTLY what I've been trying to nail into this guys head all along..."he just reached in the cage to change the water bowl, that's it", hahahahahahahahahaha, funniest thing I've heard in a while (when put in context with the conversation)...wait, no it's not that funny, it's just plain STUPID.

for being thirsty.