Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello All,

I am so sad today, I went to thanksgiving dinner today and when I got home, my Tallulah was missing. She was a Redfoot Tort that suffered from severe pyramiding due to her earlier mistreatment from her previous owners. Despite her upbringing, she was so friendly, she would follow us around begging to be fed even though she knew it was not dinner time. Tallulah was so personable! She lived on our patio here in West Palm Beach, FL and now she is gone. There is no way that she could have escaped, but since the hurricanes that hit our area, our fence has been half down where anyone can see in our patio. I am very upset and I just needed to tell someone. Sorry for the sad post, my husband and I are heartbroken.

Allegra

I am very sorry to hear that.
Hope you find your tort.

did you try them missing post for Tallulah (perhaps a rewards?)...hope it's just some neighbouring kidos who pick her up from curiosity...

calling the authorities first. Also try "missing" posters. Be sure to point out it needs a VERY specialized diet AND optimal temperatures, etc, especially since its health is already "compromised". Keep it vague. Heck the "poor health" comment might make them give it up right away...like who'd want to steal a sick dog or cat?

You might even want to put a "If found, please return. No questions asked" in big letters.

A reward might help, but it would be more likely that the culprits would just be rewarded for the crime when they drop it off and say they found it walking through their yard...

You have my sympathies, it's always very frustrating to lose a treasured companion this way.

However, something you said in your message made me want to respond for any tortoise enthusiasts out there. It is a common MISCONCEPTION that pyramiding in tortoises is a result of poor diet and is a physical expression of a disease (be it hypertrophy, MBD, whatever). As to date, there is NO scientific evidence to support these views.

Pyramiding growth syndrome(PGS)is very common amongst wild populations where the animals have ready access to their proper diet. I am currently involved with a facility where there is quite a large colony (30 ) of adult Chelonoidis carbonaria that are kept outside, all are given the same diet, and some pyramid while some do not.

The most recent scientific publication that I am aware of ("Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata)" C.S. Wiesner & C. Iben, 2003. J.Anim.Physiol.a.Anim.Nutr.87, 66-74.) shows that high levels of protein in the diet have MINOR but questionable positive effect towards pyramiding, the strongest evidence is that low relative humidity plays a key role in promoting PGS.

However, there is no evidence to claim this is a pathological condition in tortoises.

Sorry for sidetracking the discussion. Lately, I've been "sharing" in your experience as people have been snagging my hatchlings from the communal incubator.

You need to bring this up to the top of the list because it points out some neat ideas.

What I'd like to know is where PGS comes from... I like it. Yet another catch phrase.

Pyramiding is not common in the wild if you look at it stastically but you can find it.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

It depends on what species you are considering and the scale of which you refer to. In reference to the species as a whole, yes, PGS can be very uncommon in wild specimens. However, if you look at particular populations, you will find that in some cases not only does PGS become more common, but in fact, becomes predominant. There are islands in the Carribean populated by C.carbonaria, that have access to pretty much a strict diet of grasses and Opuntia sp., ie. a natural and healthy diet, and PGS is astoundingly common in these groups.

You have to consider the gregarity of the species and the fact that they were introduced.

That particular example of the RFs leads me to believe that it is hydration that is a leading factor but it still does not rule out nutrition. I also think that temperature factors into the equation.

So, in my experience, if you vary the temperature and hydration and keep everything else constant... you can have the greatest control over pyramiding.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Actually, on these islands, they were "introduced" naturally - ie. the chelonians got themselves there. C.carbonaria are quite good at dispersal, and surprisingly decent swimmers.

You are quite correct, though, with proper temperatures and humidity, PGS is quite easily controlled.

But my main point is the fact that it may not be a pathological condition as everyone assumes it is. There's no evidence to support that claim. We just think it looks bad and assume it is bad, when in fact, it may be no more pathological than a caucasian with a tan. It may simply be normal developmental plasticity in response to environmental conditions, and not have any reflection on the health of the animal at all.

Trust me, when I first started out herping 20 odd years ago, I too jumped on the bandwagon and thought of it as a disease. But since I've started doing research and being more involved with natural populations as opposed to just captive ones, a lot of things that "experts" have claimed just don't make sense. Looking through the scientific literature, there is NO evidence (yet - note I try to remain open-minded to any possibilities) to show it is a pathological condition at all.

However, if anyone can point me to scientific data to claim otherwise, I'd be very interested.

I do think it is a pathological indication in that it is an indication that the animal has developed outside of the accepted 'norm. I don't think it is detrimental (within limits) to the health and well being of the animal.

As to the introduction of the animal to other islands, the concensus is that they were distributed for the same reason as the larger tortoises of the Indian Ocean and that is for food for travelers.

There is one recorded fossil record that I know of that was dated from the pleistocene but you still can't discount that man put it there.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Depends on who's consensus you are talking about.

So, does this imply WE put Geochelone on the Galapagos Islands?

I guess we have different definitions of pathological, then. To me, a person with six fingers on one hand or a large birthmark on their face is aberrant, but by your definition they have a pathological condition.

Not trying to start a fight here, but I think "pathological" should be reserved for something PROVEN to be detrimental. I'm not saying pyramidal formation is a good thing, but I've seen nothing to say it is bad either. It is currently, in my opinion, little more than cosmetic.

That being said, I have seen some "evidence" that I would think implies a pathological condition. I have collected several tortoise shells of the same species wherein there are representatives of smooth carapace and representatives of pyramidal carapace. On cursary examination, the bone of smooth carapaces looks thinner than that of similar sized pyramidal carapaces, but the pyramidal carapace bone appears more porous. Problem is, I have no indication how old any of the shells are or the means by which any were prepared, so a definitive explanation CANNOT be related to PGS, or any other condition for that matter.

I'm going under the assumption that a consensus is a majority that is in agreement. I can only go by the references but it would seem that most of the citings as to the distribution of the RF outside of SA agree that distribution was due to mans actions.

The consensus as to how the Galaps got there is pretty much split considering that many believe that they couldn't have gotten there due to rafting but most, if not all, agree that man didn't have his hand in that distribution.

I understand that pathological is a physiological defect due to an abnormal condition. In this case we really don't know if it is environmantal or nutritional or... In this case the defect is usually cosmetic but even that is up for debate.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care