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Need help/direction! Wantt o get a HOT Viper

yasin1 Nov 26, 2004 10:59 AM

Hello,

I have been keeping several snakes since 1999 and some venomoids for about a year. I have a rhino, a gaboon, a couple monocleds and a pygmy rattler.

But I don't wanna keep on getting venomoids cos of obvious reasons.

I want to get a hot viper. But what should I get at this degree of experience?

I saw the pictures of the Desert Horned Puff Adder a couple posts below and watched a documentry about them. They are wonderful.
But are their venom extremly dangerous? (as bad as a rhino's for example) If yes, are there similiar desert vipers that stay small and less dangerous? Don't get me wrong I am not gonna be careless but I gotta consider that 'what if' question? And this is a big step for me...

Please let me know,

Thanks
Yasin
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We are the best GALATASARAY

Replies (29)

eunectes4 Nov 26, 2004 02:06 PM

any pretty big bitis is not a way to start out the day. A venomous viper...I will continue to say that a small arborial is the way to go. Granted AV is not as available and a native would be better in that sense (but I dont know where you are from so I cant say that). And for myself, I do not live in an area where any hospital will have av anyway. So my advice is the snake you can work with that you do not have to work with. If you have an arborial which you have the branch(es) set in the sides you can change a one piece substrate (assuming you are using a front opening cage...which you should be) with tongs and change the water just as easily. You feed with tongs as well and you never even have to hook the animal. Have hooks, tongs, tubes, and wear thick gloves just in case but with what I described you will have very limited chances of using them. Thats my opinion. another advatange is...good luck finding an arborial viper that is not amazingly beautiful.

yasin1 Nov 26, 2004 02:22 PM

Thanks a lot for the info.

I always loved all arborial vipers. They are probably the most amazing snakes that I have ever seen. However I thought they were harder to deal with.

I had an arborial python and he was always ready to strike.

I thought a small snake that hides in the sand would be easier to take care.

How about Cerastes cerastes? They only grow up to 18 to 28 inches don't they?

(I live in US by the way, however right now I am in Turkey for rehabilitation cos of an car accident I had back there)
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We are the best GALATASARAY

phobos Nov 26, 2004 05:12 PM

Hi:

I have the Horned Puff Adder you saw below as well as the Cerastes. The B. caudalis is a rare & expensive snake to get. Yes, it is small but it can deliver and nasty but unlikely to be fatal bite. The Cerastes (cerastes & vipera) are cool animals, easy to care for and again not big/toxic. The best part is they are easy to come by and not expensive. There are anitvenoms available but it's unlikely serum would be needed.

I agree with eunectes4 an eyelash viper from South/Central america would also be a good starter Hot, if you did not want a domestic one, which I really think is the way to go.

Good Luck,

Find the C. vipera below

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You can't enjoy your collection if it kills you.

yasin1 Nov 26, 2004 06:07 PM

man-o-man I love this snake

I gotta tell you the truth I am scared of eye-lashes...

How much are these guys? (desert horned) and where can I get one?
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We are the best GALATASARAY

phobos Nov 26, 2004 08:50 PM

I purchased my C. cerastes and C. vipera's from Glades Herps. I've bought several animals from them all top quality and Rob is easy to work with. Good People!

I actually think they have the sibling of my C. cerastes CB03, not expensive at all.

Al
Link

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You can't enjoy your collection if it kills you.

yasin1 Nov 26, 2004 09:00 PM

I can't thank you enaugh man...

Can you give me some care info via e-mail?

I would love to learn from someone experienced.

m.yasincakmak@gmail.com
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We are the best GALATASARAY

eunectes4 Nov 27, 2004 03:01 AM

Trimeresurus....
like the little albolabris....somewhat difficult feeders as babies but if you get one that is going....you got it made (especially the 2 ft males)

phobos Nov 27, 2004 08:29 AM

Sure, I will send you something via email directly later tonight. It's feeding day at my zoo, so I have to get to it.

Cheers,

Al

CB 03 0.1 C. cerastes from Glades Herps

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You can't enjoy your collection if it kills you.

yasin1 Nov 27, 2004 10:47 AM

Hey,

Thanks a lot...

What a great looking specimen... wow...

I am probably going to get one from this species but also somebody offered me a Desert horned puff adder today!... Is that way out of my league?
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We are the best GALATASARAY

phobos Nov 27, 2004 11:03 AM

Thanks,

One thing you need to do is start unsing scientific names. It removes any confusion on what species is being discussed.

If it is a real Bitis cauldalis it is not over your head venom wise but they are usually very expensive. Is it better to learn how to keep desert species on a snake costing < $100.00 or on a snake that costs > $500.00 and up. Be careful you don't get taken to the cleaners on this deal. They are very rare an I only know a few people that keep them. Don't buy anything while your in Turkey, just because you may have trouble getting it back to the uS when you return.

You've been warned,

CB04 0.1 Bitis caudalis

Al

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You can't enjoy your collection if it kills you.

yasin1 Nov 27, 2004 11:15 AM

Thanks for the warning but I am not planning to ask anyone to ship that snake to Turkey anyways... I am gonna pay for the animal and ask the owner to hold for me 'till I come back to US on Januarry.

But if its really as expensive as you say, I will definately go for the cerates cerates.
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We are the best GALATASARAY

reticbite Nov 27, 2004 11:14 PM

This is a borneo pit viper.It has given me no trouble and is so pretty.
Image

yasin1 Nov 28, 2004 01:33 PM

Well, the guy ended up asking for 1250 Euro for the bitis

I will get the cerastes Phobos can you e-mail me about it so I can ask you some more questions?

Thanks
Yasin

m.yasincakmak@gmail.com
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We are the best GALATASARAY

McNasty78 Nov 27, 2004 10:56 AM

What is there to be scared of? In my oppinion, tree vipers and tree snakes in general are the easiest to work with! They tend to not be as "flighty" as others. They also tend to not be as active. Another bonus is hooking....ever try to hook a ground snake that doesnt want to be hooked? Also in general tree snakes tend to be on the small side. They DO usually have an impressive strike range though, and one should be wary of that fact. Personally, BIG venomous snakes scare me. Kings, fer de lance, black mambas....THEY are scary (full grown).

yasin1 Nov 27, 2004 11:07 AM

Well, as I said above I am not experienced about them at all but for some reason I don't feel comfortable with any tree species.

They are awesome looking though...

As for the kings or mambas...I most likely will never keep one of them in my house I am not fast enaugh for hot elapids

But I was saying that for all venomous species a couple years ago so who knows
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We are the best GALATASARAY

McNasty78 Nov 27, 2004 11:18 AM

Have you had them for years? months? weeks? If you've had them for years without being tagged I'd say you shouldnt be too worried about getting a hot. Unless of course, you dont use all the precautions that you should be using with your "venomoids". I say "venomoids" because if the surgery is done incorrectly there is a chance the glands can regrow. If you THINK your "venomoid" is safe to handle free handed (without gloves or tools), you may get a little "surprise" one day, if the glands have regrown. However, if you have been handling them as if they were HOT (as you SHOULD), I would say that your skills are up to snuff.

yasin1 Nov 27, 2004 11:28 AM

Hello,

I have been keeping 'moids for more than 1 year now and I did free handle them for sometime when I first got them. My cobra bit me several times cos of that.

But I gave up doing that, right now I have the equipment for a venomous and I use them with my moids.

But still even with all the pre-cautions I can not deal with a cobra (I know from my 'moid monocled) so I won't get a hot one but I am pretty good with my vipers and never ever got bitten once. Even with that record, I am not going to get something that will kill me with one bite. I don't wanna take that chance yet.

As for the regrowing glands and stuff, as a geneticist I know quite a lot about what can be grown and what can't be but I am not gonna talk about it here 'cos I will be 'stamped' as a pro-venomoid person.
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We are the best GALATASARAY

McNasty78 Nov 27, 2004 11:32 AM

I wish you the best of luck.

yasin1 Nov 27, 2004 11:35 AM

Thanks a lot
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We are the best GALATASARAY

psilocybe Nov 28, 2004 06:39 PM

Hey Yasin, remember me, we had that lovely email dialogue a few months back regarding venomoids

It's actually kinda scary that you posted a thread a while back (which is what I responded to you about last time) regarding how you felt you were too irresponsible to keep venomous because your venomoid monocle almost escaped from you when you were cleaning it's cage, and now, just a short 3 or 4 months after this incident, you are inquiring about keeping venomous, but that's not the point I'm replying to this thread for...

You missed this when we had our email conversation last time:

No one is going to say that a snake that has had COMPLETE gland and duct removal is going to magically regrow either of those organs. However, there have been documented case (a particular one in Liverpool, U.K. comes to mind) where a snake that had been operated on regained it's ability to inject venom. A gland that has incompletely been removed (which can sometimes be hard to tell) CAN GROW BACK. It may not be full, but many venomous snakes inject many, many times the human lethal dose in a bite, so it is possible a snake with a partially functional gland can still deliver a serious and potentially fatal bite.

If you are going to debate cold hard facts and say that venomoid snake cannot REGENERATE part of it's venom gland and regain the ability to envenomate, then I'd say you should go back to school and re-earn that genetics degree of yours.

yasin1 Nov 28, 2004 07:46 PM

Some organs can be regenerated. If you cut a piece of your liver, the liver can regenarate itself. Its the same thing for the stomach as well.

As for the glands, yes you are right. Each gland cell is capable of producing the liquid the gland produces. However if you remove the gland totally, there is no way of regeneration. And the gland tissue can easily be differantiated from the surrounding tissue so no serious surgeon can miss this. And this is what I always said

Other than this every claim is a myth.

ps: Dealing with 'moids made me more intrested in the hots. I hope that now you see they are not tah bad after all
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We are the best GALATASARAY

psilocybe Nov 29, 2004 10:41 AM

As I stated in my post, I'm not debating that completely removed tissue can't grow back. I know this. I stated all along that INCOMPLETELY removed tissue can REGENERATE. As for no competent surgeon missing this, think again. Tanith Tyrr had her vet (a vet who deals a LOT with venomous snakes) do a "venomoid surgery" on a deceased snake, solely to see how hard it was to do. Her vet located the gland, but had a hard time telling exactly if he had indeed removed it all, as it looked very similar to the surrounding tissue. Considering 99% of voids out there are done by garage hacks (because most vets won't do 'em), I'd be scared. If a skilled reptile vet has a hard time, I can't see how an amateur hack is gonna fair much better.

The point is that while YOUR venomoids might have been done by a vet (which really doesn't mean anything, most vets aren't qualified to do this procedure), 99% of the voids out there aren't!

Another thing, keeping voids does NOT automatically prepare you for keeping hots! Whether you realize it or not, subconsciously, even if you treat a void as a hot, you know (or think) it can't hurt you. If you make a mistake, and say the snake makes a break for it, you can always cheat and just pick it up. Hots afford you no such luxury.

As for being less arrogant toward "newbies", if you are refferring to the post below with KungFu, I started off being completely polite. I informed him of the true nature of venomoid surgery, and asked him to please reconsider getting one. He retorted with "venomoids saved my friends life!" crap, and the rest is history.

Sorry, but hearing people talk about how much they love venomoids, and how many snakes they want to have operated on, and blah blah blah makes me really ticked. So chances are, those kinds of people aren't gonna get the nicest responses out of me.

yasin1 Nov 29, 2004 10:55 AM

Well, it turns out we pretty much think the same thing about regeneration. How nice!

And about the other issue, if you wanna keep on responding to people this way then at least try to differentiate between people who don't now sh!t about these animals and people who are making venomoid propoganda.

Thanks
Yasin
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We are the best GALATASARAY

psilocybe Nov 29, 2004 12:20 PM

As I said before, my first message was polite and i stuck to giving him the information regarding the surgery, if he chooses to ignore those facts and tell me how venomoids saved his friends life, I'm not going to be as friendly. For some reason, you require the same explanation 2 or 3 times.

yasin1 Nov 29, 2004 02:14 PM

Well I don't understand you and you don't understand me...then whats the point..

Take care
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We are the best GALATASARAY

psilocybe Nov 29, 2004 02:59 PM

I don't understand how someone can support animal cruelty and still claim to love the animal! Guess I'm just stupid !

turtsandtorts Dec 02, 2004 09:59 PM

I don't know that on a subconscious level I think that my venomoids can't hurt me. Hell, for all I know they could kill me! A big bitis has fangs large enough to inflict puncture wounds large enough to sever an artery. If that happened I know it would be a race to the ER. I also am aware of what a secondary infection could do to me should I take a hit. I keep all of my venomoids in the same cages I do my hots. My venomoids still get a keyed padlock which is in addition to a latch that clamps down as soon as the cage lid is slid shut. I keep all of my enclosures even more secure by laminating the glass. Should the glass be hit hard and shatter it will be retained by a sheet of laminate and not allow an escape. I don't take risks, as I know that a venomoid on the loose is just as scary (and as stated earlier, potentially as dangerous) as a hot should it manage to find someone other than myself!

I have kept venomoids in the same enclosure as hots. I try to keep this a very rare occurrence, as I prefer to keep one animal to an enclosure (It helps me should an animal get sick, as well as to help me keep the cage more accessible for cleaning, feeding, etc). I am then forced to figure out which snake is the hot one later on as well. Also, don't jump on me for pairing up snakes...I am very careful as to what species can go together. As a general rule, if really crunched for space I will resort to a custom enclosure that I have, which is plenty large to keep two smaller snakes together, and the cage is large enough to keep a nice spectrum of environmental aspects into it. If I must, I don't feel bad keeping a puff adder and a gaboon together for a few days (the snakes being under 2.5 feet in length due to the size of the enclosure).

I have known Yasin for a while, and I am sure when he does decide to step into a hot that is hot he will do it right. I know that he is not going to rush the decision, and I am sure he will look into the animal and research it extensively.

And as for my idea on a good small starter hot...an eyelash is nice. I would stay away from the trim species just because of the fact that there is no antivenin. The sand vipers are cool, but antivenin will be very hard to locate here in the US. I think the key to starting with hots is to find a small one, and assume that all of their venoms are just as potent. You don't want to think "what if", and rather "it won't tag me", but at the same time you need to check up and get all of the local antivenin stock lists and keep them updated! Personally, I have found that it is a good habit to get into of making a set of index cards for each cage. I keep one taped to the back of the enclosure, and the other on the lid. The cards are updated with every animal, and kept current. The cards have the common and scientific name on them, the typical signs of envenomation, what antivenin should be used if envenomation occurs, as well as a list of antivenin banks and contact numbers. If more than one snake is in one enclosure than I may also include a tiny picture on the card showing the skin pattern of that snake. Another key bit of info I list is how many snakes are in an enclosure! Heaven forbid I get tagged and somehow 2 snakes get loose...the emergency/animal control crew goes and locates one animal...then another worker gets tagged by the remaining animal they didn't know existed!

Sorry about all the rambling guys, just something to think about, as some do hold venomoids up to the same standards as their hots. Take care everyone, be safe.

-Steve Clark
TurtsAndTorts

yasin1 Nov 28, 2004 09:09 PM

Hey Again,

I just wanted add a couple things. First of all that incident with my cobra happened 7 months ago not 3 (not that it matters just correcting)

Secondly, I hope this won't offend you or anything but I just want to give you a simple advice if I may.

Don't be so arrogant and impolite to the newbies in this forum. I understand you care about these animals (and probably all animals) a lot and I really respect that but people who ask about venomoids are usually inexperienced people. And inexperienced people may claim pretty stupid things (they or lets say 'we' usually do)because of their lack of experience in this particular subject. And when you call these people names or use inappropriate(I spelled this wrong again!?) words to them in front of other people, you will make 'em act stubbornly and do whats wrong. Like supportting the venomoid industry in this case. Or at best you scare them of from this forum, which could make them learn a lot from experienced herpers like you guys.

I believe if you try to be more tolerant to what people believe then you will make more people like this hobby.

Thats my humble opinnion and you are free to respect it or not but I believe tolerance is the key in this issue and like in most other issues.

Thanks
Yasin
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We are the best GALATASARAY

siam Nov 29, 2004 02:39 PM

copperhead

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