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I thought american alligators only got to 12 feet. Why is the NewPort Aquarium claiming they get to 19 feet? I thought only salt's and Niles could do that...

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/1999/05/14/loc_gator_bayou.html

They were wrong about the arrowana size in the Tropical rainforest too, though in that section they underestimated their size.

Mr. F

I believe the largest ally on record was around 18 feet...so, 19 feet may not be out of the question -

Raven -

The Audubon field guides have an erronous record of Alligator mississippiensis attaining 19'2". I think this is why you see so many "educators" saying that alligators can reach 19 feet.

I don't believe there has ever been an acurate record of a living alligator over 13-14 feet (and that would be really rare).

It's really hard for erronous records and liturature to go away. Take the term gavial for instance. Gavial is not a real word. It was a misinterpretation of the original naturalist's description. So, the genus Gavialus is actually a mistake that has been petitioned to be supressed but has not because the name has been around so long and I guess the people that oversee that stuff don't want to deal with it. I've known that gavial was a misinterpretation since I was 5 years old...you don't have to read very far to find this information. However, you still see the word used in liturature and zoos all over the world...and these people claim to be zoologists and herpetologists. What's up with that?

Noted Louisiana naturalist E.L. McIlhenny (of Tabasco Sauce fame)shot a 19'- 2" specimen in the late 19th century.
I've never seen this report disputed in literature. This is one of the reasons, no doubt, that writers and others use the figure "19."

I'd be interested to see where this record is authenticated. People make up exagerated lengths of reptiles everyday (even noted naturalists). A 3 meter anaconda easily becomes 6 meters even after its been killed and measured by 10 people. An american alligator 19 feet long seems a little unrealistic to me, especially since there has never been any alligator acurately recorded even close to that length. People that spend their entire lives studying crocodilians and crocodilian liturature do not find accurate records of American alligators growing that large. I'd love to be definatively proven wrong. I work with wild adult alligators on a regular basis and I can barely fantasize about an individual 15-19 feet long. I wouldn't be utterly surprised...I just don't believe a living alligator 18 or 19 feet long has been acurately recorded in modern human history. Just my two cents.

I don't blame you for being skeptical but personally, I beleive Mclhenny's accounts. The vast majority of he research from the late 19th and early 20th centuries has stood the test of time and is still validated by modern research methods.

That being said, the fact that there is no evidence of the gator that he claims to have measured at 19'2" is a real loss. In his book, he states that he shot the gator and then went back with some others to retrieve it but couldn't move it from the swamp. He measured it three times using the barrel of his shotgun, marking each length with a slit in the gator's skin. When he multiplied the length of the barrel [30"], he arrived at 19'2" - not a precise measuring tool to be sure, but certainly within a reasonable margin of error. He also mentions 3 other gators that were killed and measured by him or his father between 1879 and 1916, the last of which I've linked a photo of the skin. MclHenny said the raw skin measured 17'10" and was missing about 4" of tail and 4" at the snout. After it was tanned, it measured 17'9".
In his book, he said that he had a standing offer to purchase any alligator over 14' (plus/minus because my memory is fuzzy) and that he had a lot of calls claiming gators of this size but that when he got there to measure them himself, he found the numbers to be exaggerated. This last statement, in my mind, gives credibility to the accuracy, and intent of his reported measurments.

Just my opinion on the matter.

Bill

The photo:

Bill,

Is it your understanding that once a large crocodilian or python is dead and muscles relaxed that the animal will gain 6 inches in length. Furthermore, after an animal has been skinned, streched and tanned, especially on an animal that was truely 12-14 feet alive, the skin can gain 1-2 feet. How do you think this influences the accuracy of these length records?

I have not studied the effect of death and muscle relaxation on large crocodilians. I don't doubt that there would be *some* difference but logically, due to a more rigid skeletal structure, I wouldn't think it would be near the amount of a much more flexible python.

Of the four gators mentioned, only one was measured as a skinned animal, and that was done both pre and post tanning. The others were recently killed animals. Even if that gator that he measured at 19'2" was off by 10% due to measurement inaccuracy and growth after death, it still would have been 17-1/4 feet long.

But that aside, my point is that based on MclHenny's history, I don't believe he was fabricating or falsely reporting numbers to gain any sort of personal fame or enhance his standing - therefore I am willing to take his information at face value. I don't know if you've ever read his work, but for me, he seems a genuine individual with a keen interest in natural history. If you have not read it, you should, it's a good read.

Bill

Before accusing McIlhenny of exaggeration, one should review his work and publications. He made scientific observations and measurements of hundreds of animals for decades. His book "The Alligator's Life History" is still as accurate and useful today as it was nearly 70 years ago.

As I recall (and I'm not positive about this) he was posthumously ridiculed by "herpetologists" in the middle of the 20th century for saying that alligators cared for their young, and would open their own nests and carry hatchlings to the water in their mouths. He was accused of repeating folk tales or confusing cannibalism with maternal care. It was more than 20 years after his death that alligators were finally filmed doing just what he said they did.

McIlhenny also played a major role in saving the Snowy and American Egrets from extinction in the late 19th century, was instrumental in helping to secure land and donations for what is now the Rockefeller Refuge, banded nearly 200,000 birds in his lifetime, and was a pioneer in the introduction of numerous species of bamboo to the United States. In 1946, the great plant explorer and scientist David Fairchild wrote of him:

"You have been the great pioneer bamboo planter of America and posterity will give you the honor that is your due for the great work you have done, not only for the Southern States, but for the American public at large"

If you haven't read "The Alligator's Life History", pick up a copy--I believe it is still in print. After reading it you'll probably agree that E. A. McIlhenny was not the sort of man to exaggerate or fabricate.

Pardon my hero worship. Edward Avery "Ned" McIlhenny is closely associated with three of my favorite things in the world--Alligators, bamboo and Tabasco Sauce.

When in Southern Louisiana, visit Avery Island.

....at least everything but the bamboo - it's never really been an interest of mine I have been to Avery Island and have gotten some good photo ops. Here is one of them, he was about 4 to 4.5 feet long and was apparently, by his behavior, used to being fed by the public. After nicely poseing for the picture, He started walking toward me, all the time biting side to side at the ground as if it was my hint to toss something to him.

It seems to me that I read something somewhere that showed evidence that alligators in LA grow to larger sizes than thier Floridian counterparts. I can't remember where I saw it though - have you seen anything like this?

Bill

I do agree that he was a genuine naturalist and it seems extremely unlikely that there was any purposeful misintent on the 19'2" measurment. I have read some of his work and have owned a copy of alligator life history for over 20 years (good stuff).

As for gators in LA getting larger than FL gators, I havn't heard anything regarding that. I'm involved with genetics research on alligators in SC. We work very closely with Dr. Ruth Elsey at Rockefeller and there doesn't seem to be any indication of this that I'm aware of (but I will ask her about it and see what she thinks). We have males in our inland population on the Savannah River Site that are all of 12 feet but nothing larger that we've caught yet.

It is very curious that if the giant measurments are correct, why has there only been 4 or 5 animals found and recorded exceeding the "maximum size"...and by 4-6 feet at that.

That there have been only a small number found, and that they were 90 years ago is also puzzling to me. Could it be that there was a subspecies or population that was prone to extra growth and that due to hunting pressures or something else, no longer exists? Or maybe because the hunters were always taking the largest ones, they just have yet to catch up or we've weakened the gene pool that produced them. I don't know.

I don't know Ruth personally, but she has helped me a great deal by send me information and papers that have been written over the years. I'm jealous of the kind of work you are doing, but not of the climate you are doing it in - I lived outside Charleston as a child and I just remember the house always seemed to have roaches in it and the weather was always sticky.

Bill

I agree with Bill I've always heard LA. gators(and TX also) has larger gators than FA.
I'm not sure why that would be but...
Before Dr. Ruth R.R. was ran by a man name Ted Joanen I think he is the modern day god of the Am. gator. He is very accesssable too.
Danny Conner

that they're bigger in Texas, right?

Bill

n.p.

I agree with batagur here....

I mean, it's possible that there was a gene pool of larger gators, but you'd think more than 4-5 would have been documented. Also, if they used to get that large - we'd see many more in the 15-16 foot range.

If in fact Texas "has them bigger" then They must be that size around there... unless they're exaggerated and have gator envy...

I suppose an equal theory would then have to be that almost all are killed before they turn 50-55 and that they have another growth spurt at 60-70... and that's why we don't see them anymore. Obviously just playing devil's advocate here, but it's quite strange that only one man (and his father) have documented a gator that size.

As someone told me recently, the only problem with field guides and educational literature is that animals can't read to know how long to get or where their habitat is supposed to be or what food they are supposed to eat. Shouldn't responsible literature say that the record gator is 19' 2" but that normally they reach lengths of 12' to 14'?
In a perfect world . . .
e

The Alligator in question was 19'2 and weighed in excess of 1,750 lbs...I do not however have any proof of this but about 10 years ago I read an article about this monster and if by chance I run across it i'll scan it and post it for the entire group to read..From what I remember, the gator was killed during the winter months in louisiana and was found in shallow water cold and frozen and not really able to run away from it's killers...If the records are true, that was one behemoth of a gator...The biggest one I personally have seen was over 15 foot and weighed a little over a 1000 lbs and that in my mind was just an incredible animal to see not to mention very rare and very old...Hopefully in our lifetime we'll get to see a 17-18 footer..If we do it will be a special event.

I'm curious, where did you see an alligator over 15 feet long and 1000 lbs? How was this animal acurately measured and weighed? I'm just really interested because 99.9% of the time giant reptile stories are bogus. I'm not saying that you're purposely exagerating, I just need proof.

The alligator I saw at 15 feet was an old gator that Gatorland had for a long time..Not sure if he is still living or not as it has been several years...I personally have worked with a 13'4 incher that weighed 945 pounds when he died in 1990 and the gator at gatorland was bigger than him..Just massive...If by chance there are any gatorland personal reading this maybe they can shed some light on this animal if by chance they got to work with him any....There are big gators around that size but it's really hard and rare to run across them....I may have a photo of that gator now that I think of it and if by chance I run across it i'll post a picture for everyone.

Just for the record, the 19'2" alligator that McllHenny shot was never weighed because they couldn't get it out of the swamp. That figure was probably someones estimate based on a lenght (that was measured). The other information was correct as McllHenny reported it. The gator was killed in January and from what he said, was in a physical condition such that it would have been doubtful if it would have made it through winter.

Bill

I remembered a story about a huge gator being caught in Texas, so I tracked down the pic and a chunk of the story. I don't know if this an "official" news story or if someone decided to fake all this, but here it is. If the story is true, then a 19 foot gator would not be that unrealistic...

July 17, 2002
This gator was caught a few weeks ago at Kitty Hollow Park in Missouri City, TX. on Highway 6. (suburban SW Houston)

A construction worker found it laying in one of the concrete pipes. The animal control officers said it weighed just under 2100 lbs and was 18 1/2 feet long. It was taken to Brazos Bend State Park, and released.

That's funny - the validity of that same photo was being discussed on the croc list a couple days ago and was also discussed here about a year ago. The story that is with the photo over on the croc list is that it was taken by the Florida Power and Light while working on an airport expansion at Orlando International Airport.

The general discussion usually gets down to whether the photo is a fake or not. Some say the photo is doctored and some say the story is made up. My opinion is the latter. I do a lot of work in Photoshop and could find no areas in the picture that are inconsistant. I know what to look for, what areas are hard to doctor and blend in etc and can find none of that here. My contention is that the photo is real, but because of perspective - the gator *appears* to be larger than it is. It's sort of like fishermen holding a fish out away from their body to distort the perception of size. I look at the number of wraps of duct tape and mentally estimate what is not there to approximate the distance between the end of the nose and the front of the eye socket. I estimate six wraps to cover that distance (using the piece that is across the eyes as a guide). If duct tape is 2" wide (it is), and there are six wraps then that distance would be 12 inches. If you agree that the ratio of a normal alligators snout length (tip of nose to front of eye socket) is 1 inch equals 1 foot of total length, then this would put that gator at about 12 feet in length. Truely a large gator but certainly not 18 feet!. Besides, if an 18' long gator actually existed then is would have been all over the news, not just a photo floating around the internet.

All that being said, it's still a great photo - too bad the gator is dead though.

Bill

I never thought to look at the duct tape to judge the length of the gator. I believe you are right though, the gator would only be about 12 feet in length. Interesting how people will use the same photo of something and just change the story to fit their needs. Reminds me of "Wag the Dog".