Reptile & Amphibian Forums

a few things i was thinking about...
snows are a real nice morph, but I wondered why don't the adult snows show red particularly with the red "deposited" from the lav alb side of the cross? could it be that we've been arguing about axanthic vs anerythristic ( the other side of the cross to get snows) since the last ice age but it may be both? lack of red in snows may be the best argument that this is the case?

white sides are another nice morph. from what i understand, the trait originated from breeding a pair of axanthics together. Was the first w.s. an axanthic w.s. or a normal w.s.? if i breed a w.s. to an axanthic will i get axanthics het for w.s.? i mean i know what the answer should be, i would like to get to the original result and maybe understand this trait's history better to see how it will potentially play out...

hats off to rainer, those lav alb x sulfur brooks are the best looking animals i have seen you post up here. might be interested in some next year!

dave b

I think that Jeff of Swampland Reptiles can answer your question on the history of the Whitesided morph. I do know a little history since I was supposed to get the original "unknown het" male axanthic that was used to produce the first WS. I was supposed to pick that unkown het male up from a friend but was late picking it up at the Birmingham show.

Here is the story:

An axanthic pair was purchased by Henry Dean from the Late Lloyd Lemke. Henry raised the pair up but had problems with the female and it died. He then sold the lone male Lemke axanthic to Brent Green who lived nearby. I found out Brent had a male Lemke axanthic and contacted him to purchase it. He agreed on a $100 price tag. He asked if I was going to the Birmingham show and told me to meet him at the show that weekend.

I arrived at noon at the Birmingham show and saw Tim Ricks standing at Brents table holdiong the male axanthic Brent was supposed to sell to me. As soon as i approached the table Brent informed me he did not think I was going to make the show (because it was noon) and he had just sold it to Tim Ricks.

Skip forward two years. I see Tim Ricks at that same show and he comes up to me and says. "hey Rainer remember that snake I bought out from under you?" I said yes. He whips out a pic and says "look what it produced". It was the first Whitesided brooks.

I don't know wether Tim bred it to a het for axanthic or a normal brooks. Jeff will fill in those blanks.

The Axanthic male that I purchased from Brent had to be purchased with a het female for more than a $100 price tag.
He would NOT sell the lone male.
This purchase was made at approx. 9 a.m. and NOT at 12 noon.
I don't ever recall seeing Rainer at that show.

Skip forward ONE year, NOT TWO, The first White-Sided was produced and I did NOT approch Rainer to discuss the White-Sided that was produced, so I don't know where he gets the notion that I said "hey Rainer remember the snake I bought out from under you?" Didn't happen, never said that.

Rainer, can you give us the date the Axanthic male was purchased?
Can you give us the year the first White-Sided was produced?

Are we talking about two different Axanthic males?

Tim Ricks

Rick
It was the same male axanthic. You can check with Henry Dean on that one as he sold it to Brent.

As far as the dates.. no I don't recall, maybe it was a year after you bought the snake and not two that you produced the first whitesided. Heck I can't even keep dates on the snakes I produced much less someone elses.

I do know you approached me at the Birmingham show and showed me the pic and you told me it was the same snake you bought out from under me from Brent.

Bluerosy,if we are talking about the same axanthic male that's OK by me.I'm not disputing if Henry Dean sld it to Brent and then Brent sold it to me.What I want to make clear is the FACT that I did NOT buy anything out from under you as you repeatedly say.I was at a Birmingham Show and so was another vendor who had an axanthic male and a het for axanthic female for sale.I paid what he wanted and he sold them to me.In my opinion you tried to make your post sound factual,you remember arriving at noon,you remember seeing me at Brent's table buying an axanthic male,TWO years later you remember me approaching you with info and pictures about the first white sided produced.Here's FACTS,on 7/19/1997,at approx.9am,at a Birmingham Show,before it opened to the public,I bought and paid for in full an axanthic male and a het for axanthic female from Brent for more than a$100 price tag.Your name was never mentioned and the male was NOT going to be sold by himself.On 6/7/1998,NOT 2 YEARS later,the first white sided was hatched.I never approached you with info and pictures,you got info and saw pictures when YOU APPROACHED my tables at later shows.I would appreciate it if you would not use my name in your posts if they are not true or fact.In the future if you want to answer posts like a professional you should keep notes like a professional. Thank You

Tim,
For the life of me I don't understand what the time and dates have anything to do with my being a professional. Maybe what is irratating you is the fact I said you came up to me one year or two years later and showed me the pic and said remember the axanthic...

At the time of the purchase it was not a big deal to me at all. The snake was just an axanthic of which I already had plenty of at that time. When I came to the show at approx noon maybe it was impression that Brent "just" sold the snake to you.

As far as when you approached me a yr or two later(yes I remember very distinctly "YOU APPROACHED ME" with a pic of the first whitesided. Whether this was one year or two years has no bearing on that fact.

I think you are upset that I am accusing you of something and that was not my intention. After reading my post over I can see how you got offended. I was just trying to share some history on the WS and a funny story. It was not any of your fault that you bought a snake from Brent and I do not blame you for anything. When you showed me the pic at the show of the whitesided we looked at it as kind of a joke. Its just one of those things that at the time it was no biggie and it happens in herpetoculture.

Rick I have always known you to be honest and an upstanding human being. I have never heard of you bending the truth. That is why I am giving you the benefet of the doubt on the whole matter where you approached me at the Birmingham show (whether it was 1 year or 2 I don't think it matters) but you seem to think it does.

I think if I was face to face with you this thing could have been solved without any of the hateful statements. I would prefer you called me and we can discuss this further rather than on a public open forum. Or you email me your phone#.

Rainer

Bluerosy,the words you choose and the way you present your posts using my name in my opinion are unprofessional.You stated that I purchased the snake at noon you say the price tag was $100,you say I approached you 2 years later.I purchased the snake before the show opened,the price tag was more than $100,and I did NOT approach you 2 years later or ANY time later pretaining to the white side project.YOU repeatedly say"Tim Ricks bought that snake out from under me". You make it sound like I did you an injust or that I did something under-handed.Your statements in this story are untrue that is why I say you are unprofessional.I am upset,you are accusing me of something,"Tim Ricks bought that snake out from under me".There is no "funny story" and I never looked at the white sided "as a kind of joke" as you put it.I don't want you to give me "the benefit of the doubt".I did not make any hateful statements,I told the truth.No, I will not call you,You brought this matter into a public forum.What would be in order now is for you to explain what you mean by the statement"Tim Ricks bought that snake out from under me" and once again never use my name in your future posts.Thank You ,Tim Ricks.

Tim,
You can hate the internet all you want but it can be fun if you give it a chance. First when you see your name mentioned by someone it should not get you upset. After all you are the originator of the whitesided brooksi and the lavender brooksi.
I know you tend to be a hothead but if you would have called me on the phone to discuss this we could have taken it somehwere. I may have been able to jar your memory or maybe we just have our wires crossed due to the internet. As it stands now I am not able to convince you of anything nor you I.

So if you want to hash this out over here then fine.

I purchased the snake before the show opened,the price tag was more than $100,and I did NOT approach you 2 years later or ANY time later pretaining to the white side project.

I never said YOU bought the snake for $100. I said it was a price agreed upon before I arrived at the show. And you DID approach me a year or two later. It was not at your table but in the aisle at the Birmingham show.

YOU repeatedly say"Tim Ricks bought that snake out from under me". You make it sound like I did you an injust or that I did something under-handed.Your statements in this story are untrue that is why I say you are unprofessional.I am upset,you are accusing me of something,"Tim Ricks bought that snake out from under me".

I can see that you are upset however I am not accusing you of any wrong doing. You approached me at the Birmingham show with the pic and said it yourself. I said it in my previous post and I will say it again in case you missed it. How can you be at fault if someone offers a snake for sale and you bought it? The snake was not stolen and even if it was, you would not be to blame.

There is no "funny story" and I never looked at the white sided "as a kind of joke" as you put it.

Never said the whitesided is a joke. The funny part is how things sometimes work out as the snakes we own cross paths.

I don't want you to give me "the benefit of the doubt".I did not make any hateful statements,I told the truth.No, I will not call you,You brought this matter into a public forum.What would be in order now is for you to explain what you mean by the statement"Tim Ricks bought that snake out from under me" and once again never use my name in your future posts.Thank You ,Tim Ricks.

Okay so you are going on a rant at this point and I am not going on the defensive or offensive. I have known you for several years and we never had a problem communicating in person-
Up until that show in Birmingham (that was 1 or 2 years after you bought the axanthic and normal female from Brent) I had never heard of a whitesided brooksi. When you showed me the pic it was the first time I had seen the whitesided brooksi. The fact that it was supposed to be me that owned the snake is a bit bitter sweet but that is the way the cookie crumbles. You got lucky and I wish I had. The statement that you bought the snake out from under me can be interpreted in more than one way and I already explained that in my last post and above and don't think I need to again.

Rainer,not once did I mention in my posts that "I hate the internet".I did mention to Jeff in a post that I do hate computers. This is a fine example of how you twist things around and this is why I prefer you not to mention my name or activities in your future post.You don't know me well enough to determine me as a hothead.I'm trying to hold polite intelligent conversation with you without name calling. Since you think I am a hothead,I've come to the conclusion that I'm dealing with an ignorant individual that no longer deserves any of my time.

Hey dude
Ive seen you blow up at Doug Beard at the Orlando Expo about a dispute you had with him. You were yelling and using profanity over something that could have been discussed. Thats why i think you are a hot head.

As far as your computer comment vs internet. Now I think you are a nut case as well.

okay so start nutting up

Rainer

Tim

I dont think Rainer meant anything as a slam to you. I think he was in a sense slamming himself for selling that snake. Kinda like giving away a painting then finding out its worth 20 times what you thought. Anyway chill out bro the details you are getting pissed about are not that big o' deal. The way I took it when Rainer said you "brought the snake from uder him" was with sarcasm not that you have some special power that you see recessive traits in snakes and hence you screwed Rainer LOL.

Keith
-----

I bought a male Anerythristic Brooksi and a female het for anerythristic Brooksi from Lloyd Lemke as babies. The male grew fast but the female was a terrible feeding runt. The female later died I think when it was only 14 inches or so long and 2 years old. The male was 3-4 foot long when I sold it to Brent. I have no knowledge what happened to this snake after I sold it to Brent including if it was the one that started the whitesided line. Please leave me out of the drama. I have only heard the story from Rainer regarding what happened to it and didn't hear it until this year.

I only believed Lloyd because I looked up to him and I was a personal friend. He had a great arguement that they were anerythristics. I was not that interested in that arguement at the time so I don't recall what it was. Lloyd always called them anerythristic brooksi and was very adament about that fact.

I beelive Lloyd was the first person to produce anerythistic brooksi. I think the NE strain came later.

I think what alot of folks have been thinking is they are Anerythristic as well as Axanthic. Dont see too much yellow in adult snows either I assuming ?

Keith
-----

The first White-Sided was produced from the breeding of an Axanthic male to a Normal female for the sole purpose to strengthen the Lemke line, for at that time the males were believed to be infertile.

Tim Ricks

What are you doing here? I thought you hated computers. It's good to see you on here checking up on things. I will call you in a few days.
Jeff LeCompte

Hi Jeff,good to here from you,happy to know you are doing well with the white sides.What am I doing out here? To make a long story short just look at some previous posts.Yes, you are right,I DO HATE COMPUTERS,but I've come to learn that in this day and age computers are a necessity.How I REALLY HATE THEM.Looking forward to hearing from you in the near future.Wishing you and your family a good evening,Tim Ricks.