Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I think its obvious to EVERYONE that hot keepers and venomoid keepers do NOT get along....I think that if there were a venomoid forum it may help a bit.....any questions posted by newbies here regarding venomoids could be referred by us, to the venomoid forum. What do you guys/girls think?

Some of us I am sure think that giving venomoiders a forum would also give them a whole lot more legitimacy than they deserve...

Quite a few people feel that way. I dont understand how it would make them more legitimate though. They are going to talk about it no matter what. The only difference is when they do it in a "HOT" forum it ruffles everyones feathers. If people want to go to the venomoid forum to ENLIGHTEN (Bash) them, thats their decision. I think there is a definite DIVIDE between moid and hot keepers that will never go away. Why fight it....lets make it official.

I agree with snakeinhand.....Just leave them be...tooo much time is wasted on them already.

Al
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You can't enjoy your collection if it kills you.

I think you'd have hotkeepers doing nothing more than slashing the venemoid keepers. And most of us are strong in our feelings against gland removal. They'd have to name it the "Venomoid Slashers Forum".
They would have to secretly start a venomoid anonymous if they wanted a place to talk without being harrassed.
Cricket

We slash them anyway! But at least if it was on THEIR forum THEY would have to deal with it. Instead of people who want to talk about "HOTS".

My one fear is that if venomoiders got their own forum then it would seem right and ok to have a venomoid snake, which it isn't and there would be no rebutals to set the people straight just my $0.02

I agree. Also, if someone stops by that forum first, they get one side of the story, it may help to expand the venomoid trade.

The thing is, people ask about venomoids ALL THE TIME on this forum, and the other venomous ones as well. Everyone here and in those others get their feathers ruffled and major fights break out almost every time. It is quite obvious that these questions annoy the real venomous keepers in these forums, and people are always complaining about how many venomoid questions and discussions there are. Yet when the situation is presented where no more venomoid questions would be asked here, you all still get upset. If you haven't figured out by now that you are not 'winning' the venomoid war here or almost anywhere else, then you need to open your eyes. Kingsnake is obviously not going to ban the discussion or sale of venomoids anywhere in the nearish future, so to continue to bicker about it is a waste of time. It was asked by Jeff Barringer only a number of months ago if we'd like to create a venomoid forum and classifieds. I myself would LOVE to see that happen, that way they'd both STOP ASKING about them here and STOP SELLING them in the real venomous classifieds. Of course, you all hopped on the bandwagon and attacked that idea, and it was defeated. So, since you have chosen to go ahead and allow them to discuss venomoids here in 'your' forum, you really don't have much of a right to gripe and complain about it. It wouldn't give them any more of a spotlight than you guys already resoundingly give them here!

Wow, sorry this has turned into such a rant, but it seems like we, as a community, couldn't agree on anything if our very lives depended on it. Our hobby sure depends on it though, and we see what kind of havoc people get to have with our rights when we sit by and fight amongst ourselves rather than fight those who can put new laws into place. But no, we'd rather flame each other over venomoids, inexperience, taxonomic proposals, where we take our pictures, etc, than protect ourselves. So be it. We've been asking for it for a LONG time, my only surprise is that it has taken this long to get things going.

So yeah, let's let the venomoid people have their own forum and IMO, their own classifieds. At least then you woulnd't have to put up with them. Somehow though, I have a feeling that not many of you would be up for that idea. Such is life. Let the venomoid discussion continue!! lol
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Chance Duncan
http://www.rivervalleysnakes.com

I'm just so sick and tired of the same old debate that goes NOWHERE! All the points people try to make have already been made 5,000,000,000 times. There is no fighting it. There are going to be people who buy/sell/talk about venomoids no matter how much we stamp our feet and hold our breath. And I would much rather have it happen on a forum that I dont look at. And when someone posts here to ask about them, you can still always give them a good tongue lashing in your post referring them to the venomoid forum lol.

alright, so I'll look like an outsider when I mention this, but if it were illegal to keep all hots then the venomoids would be halted as well. This would also eliminate irrisponsible venomous ownership (with exception to illegal activity of course, which is of course, illegal). For those truely dedicated to keeping hots, then they would become zoo keepers or carry out the requirements to obtain there own zoo permit and open there own zoo.
I know this idea is tough to swallow, but the "hobby" of keeping hots seems parralel to the hobby of keeping tigers and large primates; constantly tarnished by a relatively large percentage of irrisponsible ownership and/or overwhelming risks. While still legal in a few states/provinces, new legislature trends it is only a matter of time before we lose.

weeding out all the good honest people from the hobby. The only ones left would be people who are already keeping venomous snakes illegally, and it would leave venomoid people hacking snakes in their garages still.

I disagree. If we can assume that it is the minority that would keep illegal snakes and that it is law enforcement's job, not ours to prosecute them than it would be safe to assume that keeping illegal snakes is a serious drawback for most people. Less people keeping hots, less people keeping venomoids.
As for people serious with keeping hots, then where there is a will there is a way and some form of permit will be granted.

np

I would venture a guess that we would far be outnumbered by the people who keep them illegally. Last I heard, in NY where we have a permit system, there was about 70 people that actually have permits. Do you honestly think there are only 70 people in the state of NY that are keeping hots?
What you don't realize is that kingsnake.com makes up about 1% or less of people actually keeping reptiles, so we would be considered the minority. Not to mention, I can name 25 people in these forums off the top of my head that are keeping hots illegally, so it's even worse than you realize. If you think that the banning of venomous would result in the banning of venomoids, which are already done and sold illegally, then you need to think again. There is a much bigger world out there than kingsnake.com.

I agree. I was a vendor at the Greenville SC (hot)show, and a lot of people asked me where to get info on various types of snakes & lizards. I was surprised that 9 out of 10 had never even heard of Kingsnake.com.
Then I had a totally ignorant person ask me about breeding venomoids. This fool thought he could breed two together & get venomless offspring!!!!Stupid, stupid people! They have no business owning ANY kind of reptile or animal.
Cricket

I am going to have to agree. I began a registered herp club through the universirty here and membership boomed upon the first 2 days we opened it to the students and faculty. I ask every meeting who has a registered KS account and there is still only a few. In the beginning I believe maybe 3 people at max had one. Lots of herpers...few on here. And as far as the hots in collections. Very very few ways to keep hots legally in the state I live in (some may know and I have said but I wont put it on this thread) and the most common way is through a loop hole I wont get into. But guess what, fair number of hots. Now most these people are responsible keepers and know what they are doing (at least ones I can think of off the top of my head..but many are friends of mine and I like to think I am not friends with irresponsible idiots). Currently I do not know anyone keeping a venomoid so that is the good thing but that does not mean they don't exist. From time to time I hear about them floating around. The point is, laws are not what stops people and more restrictions can only harm the people who are most dedicated and responsible. Its just how that works.

I totally agree with you. I feel that if keeping hots were illegal, there would be almost as many people keeping them. I'm sure that I'd keep mine. I have all mine legally, but yet very few people even know I have them. It's just something I choose not to tell. I don't run a sideshow to impress other people. I have them for MY own pleasure. I live in NC & the laws here vary from county to county.
I don't know anyone personally that has the venomoids either. Safety, education, & respect are & always will be better than gland removal. Anyone that thinks it's all right should have their saliva glands cut out. Same deal, different species.
Cricket

What about the rest of the world? Do you really think the ENTIRE world will ban the keeping of venomous snakes? Of course not. I would LOVE to stick to the topic, which is a FORUM for venomoid keepers.

1/ It seems that locality does play on opinions here; I've only heard of one case of someone keeping hots here in Alberta where it is illegal. I know it happens occasionally but it would be safe to say that it is rare. Then again, there are no local hots here.

2/ Of course kingsnake is the minority put I don't understand the point. Also since no one seems to actually know venomoid keepers, then perhaps the problem is inflated here and it is really not a huge enterprise.

3/ Thus back to the original topic, perhaps a venomoid forum isn't plausible because of the small numbers who would actually use it for such.

Again, all opinion, or my two cents as everyone seems to say

Scroll down the pages of this forum and count all of the posts where there is a debate about venomoids. I would be willing to guess that it takes up about 30-40% of the total posts on this, and the other venomous forums. That alone has been enough of a reason for OTHER forums to divide....look at all the python forums. There used to be just ONE python forum, now theres like 20. My point is that if ONE topic takes up that much space, and the topic itself tends to be discussed in a very heated way....It needs its own forum.

Actually, I'm all for a venomoid forum. I was just pointing out that there are certain people that would visit the site ONLY to slash them. It is some peoples character to live life for the sole purpose of stirring up crap. For some, it's an illness. They are so miserable that they only want to spread the BS.
Cricket

I completely concur with your opinion. I've seen my fair share of slashing and bashing directed toward myself, so I suppose it gives me a more intimate outlook on it than some others. Judging by the fact that some real venomous keepers like to send hate e-mails and threatening phone calls to venomoid keepers and sellers, I believe you are 1000% correct, they probably would go to their forum just to make trouble. However, you can bet that, at least initially, moderation would be stepped up in that forum to deter things like that from wrecking the entire idea. I just wish people could realize that it would at least stop the constant headache here...
-Chance
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Chance Duncan
http://www.rivervalleysnakes.com

It's kinda like abortion in this country... if them damn pro-lifers would stay the hell away from the front offices of obortion clinics then there would be a lot less guilty feeling unpregnant mothers... wouldn't there????

BTW I'm Pro-Choice
But Pro-Venom ...go figure.. ****Shrugs shoulders****