Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hey everybody...i just went out to home depot yesterday and got some play-sand and pretty much re-did the cage...here's a pic of it so let me know what everybody thinks!! It's extremely fine-grained play-sand so the threat of impaction should be brought to a minimum ;] thanks guys!!

-S1N

you can see one of my baby's tails sticking out from under the water-dish/hiding spot lol...and the white stuff in the food dish is a calcium supplement i put on top of there mealworms/waxworms when i feed them ;]

Looks cool.... Get rid of the sand......

You may want to remove some of the sand. I use sand in one setup and sand/tile in another similar set up. I don't use sand for any gecko under 6 months old and I don't pile it up, less than 1/8" on the bottom. Some on this forum will tell you to remove the sand all together...I think sand is as safe as any other substrate when properly utilized. I have NEVER had any impaction problems (in over 10 years).

Old picture...this is while I was still setting it up, it is finished now.

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www.hullabalooherps.com

Looks pretty nice.

People will tell u to get rid of the sand but whatever....ive always used sand in the past and never had problems. They live in sandy conditions in the wild after all, so they should be able to deal with it.

But paper would obviously be less risky

Leopard geckos are suspected to live in rocky areas where they can retreat to damp crevaces at night, and sort of bask on the rocks at night that were heated by the sun. they don't encounter great quantities of sand and probably don't care much for having to walk through a ton of it (it's probably comparable to us walking through a foot of snow...all of the time). That's just what I've gathered from what I've read. There are a lot of misconceptions...basically, sand is really only a good substrate for a very few select species of reptile. For instance, it is commonly used with bearded dragons, but where they are found in australia the ground is actually packed dirt, not sand.

I suppose if you haven't had any problems yet, you'd probably not think much of using it still. I just wouldn't personally because of all of the horror stories I've heard (my vet says sand impactions in leopard geckos happen all the time...more than it does with any other species).

I tried sand, and lost a leo to impaction.
I tried just a little bit of sand, and lost a leo to impaction.
Went to carpet, paper towel, and nothing (no substrate in the plastic bin rack) and haven't lost a leo since. It's enough to make me a firm advocate against sand.
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Brian Skibinski
Brian@MilwaukeeReptiles.com
www.MilwaukeeReptiles.com
Leopard Gecko Care Sheet

Like I have said 100 times, it is just not woth the risk..... Sometimes some people can get away with it but most times it does affects leos in a negative way..... Also what Ryan said about their natural habitat is 100% true..... The soil in their habitat is dried and hard packed..... They do not live in the sand dunes or on the beach..... If you look at their feet, they are not designed to walk in loose beach or play sand..... They have evolved to live in and around rocky outcrops..... Sand is a huge risk to take just so you can have a coo looking cage setup...... Should I even mention the problems assosiated with calci sand???

actually...i just got rid of the calci-sand i had in the cage...i've heard about the huge risk of impaction caused by it because the calci-sand encourages them to eat it...thus causing impaction...i changed to play-sand because i heard it doesn't encourage this and is easily passable if eatin...;]

thanks!!

-S1N

Their natural habitat (deserts of Pakistan and other points in the middle east) are rocky outcroppings that are also loaded with sand! The sand in their habitat is a fine sand that blows everywhere and gets into everything. The sun does "bake" the sand to a very hard, packed consistancy...until the wind starts blowing and then it goes EVERYWHERE. Leos stay in small crevices they have dug out in the day and come out to hunt at night. The small holes and crevices are loaded with sand, hence their natural tendency to dig and bury eggs in "sand like" substrates like the substrates we put in their egg laying boxes or humid hides. Animals, including leos, are designed to tolerate a certain amount of "junk" to pass throught their digestive system, they eat insects in the wild and they usually end up with a mouthful of dirt / sand in addition to their meal. A leo would have to eat a substantial amount of sand to become impacted. What substrate you use in your cages is a personal choice. I know people who have had leos get impacted with various types of substrate, there were other mitigating factors that contributed to this impaction problem. If you are vigilant and have taken care of every husbandry need...water, calcium, temperatures, hide spots, etc...sand is just as safe as any other substrate. Having said that, don't pile it up, use enough to let them dig around in it and push it where they want it to go. My leos make small "piles" or holes where they want them.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

Substrate is not a matter of choice...... It also does not matter how many precausions you take with their husbandry..... Loose substrate is not good..... Sand impaction is a problem you get when you use sand..... That is the bottom line..... You can not simulate their natural substrate with the crap you buy here..... Leos do not spend their life running in sand...... They are not physicaly built for it.... They actually avoid it as much as possible...... All it takes to start an impaction is a mouth full of sand..... Again I ask, Why risk your leos health???? It is just mind blowing with all the horror stories people still insist on using it..... I guess that is what happens when there are a bunch of people giving advice on things they have not looked into enough them selves....

>>>Substrate is not a matter of choice...... It also does not matter how many precausions you take with their husbandry..... Loose substrate is not good..... Sand impaction is a problem you get when you use sand..... That is the bottom line..... You can not simulate their natural substrate with the crap you buy here..... Leos do not spend their life running in sand...... They are not physicaly built for it.... They actually avoid it as much as possible...... All it takes to start an impaction is a mouth full of sand..... Again I ask, Why risk your leos health???? It is just mind blowing with all the horror stories people still insist on using it..... I guess that is what happens when there are a bunch of people giving advice on things they have not looked into enough them selves....>>>

Hey Gregg did you read my post? As far as giving advice I believe I have more than enough experience to justify any advice I give on these forums. Not to mention 2 degrees in biology! Please read posts throughly before commenting on them.
As far as "risking your leos health"; you do that every time you put food in the cage, handle your leo, put ANYTHING in the cage with your leo, use UTH's or any heating device and I could go on and on...I am sure everyone gets the point. "Horror stories" are not necessarily fact. I do know of people who have had leos with impaction issues...one more time...THERE WERE OTHER FACTORS INVOLVED. No one will come on these forums with stories about impaction and also share other pertinent facts like the leo had a heavy parasitic load or low immune functions or they had incorrect temps or didn't have calcium available or didn't provide a source of fresh water regularly or used poorly gut loaded insect feeders or any number of other things that could cause a problem for their leo.
Please shed some light on your statement about leos not being "physically built" for being housed with a sand substrate. Also, please feel free to share pics of your gecko enclosures.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

Okay, I can accept that you have your opinion on the subject that differs from mine. I just decided, mainly after talking to my vet for a couple minutes, that it isn't worth the risk. Yes, most of the time there are other factors involved, but that doesn't affect the way a chronic impaction builds up. It is impossible for all of the sand to pass each time they ingest it, so a little will stay in the intestines. If ingesting sand only happens every once in a great while, this usually won't cause a problem, and sand will slowly work its way out of the system. If however, the animal is getting a little bit of sand in the regularly (from licking it or eating off of it), it will continue to build up very slowly until it either blocks off the intestines completely, or just makes it impossible for the animal to digest food. Even if I had a leopard gecko that was in perfect health, I still wouldn't trust myself to put it on sand just because it's a risk that I find unnecessary. It's just a personal preference. I don't want to lose a pet because of such a careless mistake. I would honestly think twice about putting a bearded dragon on sand ever again too. It's not as much that I'm worried about impaction, but they just aren't designed for it. If you've ever seen a bearded dragon walk on sand, you can tell that it's a little troublesome.

I think that was another of your questions too right? How are they not built for walking on sand? I'm not sure I can answer that for leopard geckos, because I don't have one yet, and i don't think I'll ever put one on sand, but I can give you my input I've accumulated from my bearded dragon. I noticed that when I used to have sand in his cage, he would stay up on his branches much more, and when he did come done, he seemed much less than graceful on the sand. His feet sunk in and sand was getting thrown everywhere (including his food dish). I switched to using either carpet or rubber shelf liner (and I might try slate tiles or even packed dirt in the future), and he spends more time running around on the ground and seems to enjoy running around the cage more. Plus, his food is always clean now.

A leopard gecko is obviously a smaller creature, so it's hard for me to picture them running on sand anyways (don't know if they'd sink in or not), but my preference is simply to not keep my reptiles on sand. It's messy, dusty, and can cause problems. That's just my opinion though.

If your beardie was throwing sand everywhere and had difficulty walking in it, that may be because there was too much sand in the cage. Few animals are designed to tread through deep, loose sand. If you read my post carefully, I stipulated that the sand should NOT be piled up and that I use about 1/8" of sand in my enclosure. There should never be so much sand that your animal sinks in or has trouble moving about the cage.
Most material an animal eats will completely pass within 24 hours. (Of course there are some exceptions.) By keeping a careful watch on the animals feces and defecation patterns an owner can learn much about what the animal is eating when you aren't watching. It is gross and no fun, but it is necessary for the well being of your pet. All substrates (even the somewhat popular choice of "no substrate" has disadvantages. All the "calci sand" products are expensive aand MAY contribute to impaction, papertowel can harbor fungus and mold if not properly cleaned & it too can cause impaction!, repticarpet is more of a pain to keep clean and sometimes there may be issues with toes getting stuck in the fibers. Some of these substrates also disrupt the geckos natural instinct to burrow and dig.
I applaud the fact that you are researching the care requirements of leos before you get one, not enough people are taking the time and effort to do the research first! I am sure you will make a terrific leopard gecko owner! I am being sincere about that.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

perhaps an 1/8" of sand might be okay for a leo to tread through. If you know bearded dragons though, you know that 1/8" of sand, or even 1/2" of sand equals 2-3" in one part of the cage and none in another part. I'll admit that sand can and has been used with lizards (including leos) without any problems, but I just don't want to take the risk that it could happen. I also seem to find it much easier to examine lizard feces when I don't have to sift it out of sand...I didn't know what sand was there before and what came out of the lizard.

Calci sand probably seemed like a good idea at the time, but it ended up being a step in the wrong direction. the problem is it still sells, and that's why the companies keep making it. Same goes for the crushed walnut shells.

Sometimes it's nice to have a cilivilized conversation about this kind of stuff. whenever I post my views on this type of thing I always worry about who's going to misinterperet it or take it to heart, and maybe even start flaming me for it.

Hey Hill,
I will post a pic of my rack system if you realy want me to, but if you have seen one boaphile rack you have seen them all..... It is heated with inlayed heat tape and is connected to a double thermostat..... I use paper towels that are changed out twice a week with a small drinking dish, a mealworm dish and snapple caps filled with miner-all i...... I use those glad plastic boxes for a humid hide/egg box and I use bed-a-beast inside the box...... Pretty basic and simple..... Zero chance of impaction..... No chance of fungus growth being that they are cleaned out so often..... It takes me about a half an hour to clean out 30 sweater boxes..... It is basic, fuctional, and very sanitary..... Actually my leos are doing much better since I put them in the racks...... Heat and humidity are maintained much better and it also seems that leos do much better when they live a solitary life until ofcorse, it is time to breed..... Why do you want to see the enclosers anyway????

As far as how a leo is not built for sand, just take a look at their feet, Mr biology..... With the amount of degrees you have in bio, you should know that little hands and feet with claws on them do not do well in sandy conditions..... If you look at different species of lizards that have evolved to live on sand all have a pretty similar foot structure that is a far different from a leopard geckos..... And what does you having two degrees in bio do for your knowledge on a leos problems with sand????? I also have a degree in bio..... What does that mean???? Absolutly squat..... Again it is not in the best interest of your leo to put it on play or beach sand..... It does not even come close to what they live and hunt on in the wild.....

A couple of points: "zero chance of impaction" - you'd better recalculate your odds Gregg, your gecko has a risk of impaction from the bed a beast and the papertowels. And Yes, I would still like to see your set up! You are all over this forum questioning the experience and credentials of everyone else (including the remark addressed toward me about some people don't research for themselves)and arguing to the point of obnoxiousness...so "show me"! You haven't proven anything other than you like to be rude to folks who have an opposing view point. If you truly had a degree in anything, especially biology, you would be more apt to look at other viewpoints and disagree (RESPECTFULLY) using logic and facts to back up your information, you simply attack the other person as inexperienced, unlike yourself! Please! Not to mention everyone I know with a degree from anywhere knows how to form a coherent statement with grammatically correct sentences.
As for the feet, go to google or any website with gecko pics, take a little looksey at pictures of the Namib desert gecko (inhabits areas that are almost exclusively sandy) and the viper gecko (inhabits the same types of areas as leos)...check the feet, notice anything?
By the way...it's MS. BIOLOGY!
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www.hullabalooherps.com

I said I had a degree in bio, not grammar..... What does my spelling or sentence structure have to do with anything??? You are questioning my credentials???? I have said this before but I will say it for you again.... I am not known for any work with leopard geckos..... But I do extensive work with bitis gabonica..... I have papers written that are soon to be published.... I am credited on atleast two zooilogical websites and about a half dozen other sites dealing with venomous reptiles...... I also have my own website dedicated to members of the bitis family..... bitisgabonica dot com...... I am also still in the middle of writting a book on gaboon vipers and their kin...... Yes, all of my writtings will be checked for spelling errors....LOL.... Now I have kept leos since I was a kid..... You know, before all of these color phases and recessive genes..... After so many years of keeping them, you know what works well and what can be a problem waiting to happen..... Like I have been saying, leos do not live in sand and they should not be kept on it in captivity..... They are not built for it..... I will post a pic of my rack in a day or two..... Is that cool with you, Ms Biology????

common guys you should join forces against the leige of idiots instead of fighting over who has the bigger bio degree
- we all respect you both