Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm getting these next week. They're nearly identical to one that I got about 2 months ago. I know some are saying they look to be JCPs and some are saying Irian Jayas.

Those of you saying JCP, I'd really be curious to know why you don't think they are Irian Jaya. I don't want to argue with anyone, I just want to see what your point of view is. I'm pretty sure that what we're looking at is the high yellow version of the Irian Jaya Carpet Python, but I want to consider all options.

As I concluded on that last one (pics on my site aren't up right now, or I'd post them), I'm still saying that they're High Yellow IJCPs for these reasons.

1) Baby Jungles are never this bright yellow...plus, this is a deeper gold, like my other confirmed pure blooded Irian Jayas have. Look at all the high yellow JCPs...they're only black and yellow, and the yellow is much lighter as babies...almost pastel-ish. Think about what a high yellow JCP pattern looks like...now think about what that would look like on an Irian Jaya. Obviously more yellow, and less black and rust orange color...which is what we have here.

2) In case you are misunderstanding what I mean by "High Yellow", I mean they have more than the normal amount of yellow pattern along with a reduction in the amount of black pattern. I do not necessarily brighter/better yellow.

3) The black is fading to a rust/orange color along the lower sides of the animals. Just like a typical Irian Jaya's black fading to orange...only the bands/saddles are much thinner being "High Yellow."

4) If they were part Jungle, why am I finding several of these really similar looking snakes all over the country, especially at such a young age? These two originally came from different breeders and there is a slight difference in age. The one I have at home, is also identical, but is a late '01 animal, whereas these are both late '02.

OK...Now tear my head off and tell me what you think! j/k

I think you should post some pics...

I was going to snag those but as the lineage could not be verified. They looked too much like a couple of other IJ x Jungles I found. And those babies were born with typical red IJ hues. Hmmmm....
If lineage proving pureness could have beed provided, I probably would have beat you to them! LOL!
I just don't want to integrate those into our lines if there is a chance they are not pure.
Can you post pics of the original one you got?
They are very nice looking snakes, that's for sure.
It will be interesting to see how they mature.
Glad to see you around Anthony.
-Yasser

I'd post pics of that other one, but my site is down right now. Debit Card was lost, and now I can't pay for my domain name renewal...it's a big long mess.

Anyway, about breeding them to the documented, 100% pure, F1 Irian Jayas that I have. Don't worry...Not even a chance.

If and when they breed, they will be two totally different lines. Plus, remember...any offspring from my carpets will come with an ID number and a disk showing pics of mom & dad, etc. I would also label these as my "High Yellow Irian Jaya Carpet" line and will fully explain in the documentation that the parents' histories could not be verified, but that they are unrelated.

I'm telling you...my carpets are going to be documented like Chondros. Just wait and see.

About them being crosses...If you look at them, they really do look identical to the one on the Barkers' websit (link below).

To me, they just look like all the other IJs out there, but they just don't have as much black/brown-orange. That's why I think that the yellow looks so much more intense.
Check this one out...the head pattern is even identical on two of mine.

it is good to hear you don't plan to cross these into your pair of 2 yr olds.
But at the same time, even if you do keep these new ones separate, can you still call them IJs if you don't really know?
That's why I didn't get them. I can't find myself sticking with a group that I am unsure of...it would drive me up a wall. But then again, I also won't be able to look at those gorgeous snakes any time I wish! It was a tough choice but I chose to pass.
Kepp us posted on their color changes.
-Yasser

Yasser,

I know what you mean about not knowing for certain, but rest assured that I am doing my research, and I am going to try like hell to pin this thing down before they're ever ready to start producing. I've actually decided to take this on as a project, which may take me the better part of the next year or so to figure out, but I'm willing to take longer if need be. I really love the way they look, so I've decided to take a chance, shell out a few bucks, and spend some time gathering all the info that I can. I'll also be looking very closely at any unusual imports that I can get my hands on. If things don't go well, worst case scenario, I'll be labeling them as "Mystery" Carpets, but I'll still be providing all the information that I can.

In my opinion, there's too much diversity in Carpets to say that something is not pure, simply based on the fact that it's not what we typically see. This is something that we need to really consider with a subspecies that is still being imported to this day. I honestly think that we'll start to see some bonafide IJ morphs pop up over the next 10 years or so, due to this fact.

I feel that by just giving up and not accepting new or unusual looking Carpets because we don't know what to call them, we're cheating ourselves out of working with some of the most beautiful specimens out there. Irian Jaya Carpets have only been in the pet trade for 8-9 years, so I think there's a lot we have yet to see. The imports that Ben Siegel had last year really speak volumes when you think about it that way.

From an appearance standpoint, I don't think these are quite as different as they appear to be when you initially glance at them. When you really look at them up close, and then look at a "normal" one in detail, you can see that the pattern is simply reduced, but the colors remain the same.

What really makes me discount the Jungle x Irian Jaya theory is the fact that all three of these are different ages, and have come from different parts of the country. And, as I'm sure you know, there are tons of Jungles out there, and they vary even more than the animals that we consider Irian Jayas. So, for all three to be hybrids, and look nearly identical, I'd think that they would have to have be made using the same "recipe." By that, I mean that all three breeders would have had to pair the same "appearance type" of JCP up with the same "appearance type" of Irian Jaya, to get babies that look so identical. This could have happened, but I'd say that the odds are more likely that the animals are either wild caught or just an unusual appearance (high yellow pattern) of Irian Jaya.

About my research so far...

I had my friend Gary Quirk (the local breeder that produced my '01 Irian Jayas and all of my female breeder Ball Pythons) come over this weekend, and I showed him the one that I already have. He said that he believes that they are M. s. variegata (or harrisoni, however you want to look at it) and that he has seen a couple of fresh imports that looked like that. He theorized that the reason we don't see more of this type, is because they may come from a "relatively harder to get to" population on the island. To me, that does make sense, when you're talking about such a diverse range, that happens to be about the size of Texas. I really trust Gary's opinion, since he was one of the first to work with the subspecies, and I think that he will be of a lot of help in pinning these down. In fact, he actually provided scale counts of imported animals (including the parents of my CBB '01s), etc. to help Hoser describes them as a subspecies, back in the early to mid 90's. He still has that data, so once they shed, I'm going to get scale counts from all three, and then compare that data to his data from several imports that he brought in back in the mid 90's.

About the color. It's funny you mention that. The one I have just shed, and to my dismay, has dulled out considerably. In fact, the yellow is unfortunately now a dull tan/brown color. I think (hope) that it may just be due to the fact that it was off feed and had a terrible shed. I don't know why, but it didn't shed for 12 days after it went blue, and the skin started to look really dry even though the humidity was in the 70% range.

I'm glad you like them though. It's kinda spooky how our taste in snakes is so similar. Who knows...you might end up getting a pair of their babies from me some day. Even more incentive for me to find out what they are. lol

Yasser,

I know what you mean about not knowing for certain, but rest assured that I am doing my research, and I am going to try like hell to pin this thing down before they're ever ready to start producing. I've actually decided to take this on as a project, which may take me the better part of the next year or so to figure out, but I'm willing to take longer if need be. I really love the way they look, so I've decided to take a chance, shell out a few bucks, and spend some time gathering all the info that I can. I'll also be looking very closely at any unusual imports that I can get my hands on. If things don't go well, worst case scenario, I'll be labeling them as "Mystery" Carpets, but I'll still be providing all the information that I can.

In my opinion, there's too much diversity in Carpets to say that something is not pure, simply based on the fact that it's not what we typically see. This is something that we need to really consider with a subspecies that is still being imported to this day. I honestly think that we'll start to see some bonafide IJ morphs pop up over the next 10 years or so, due to this fact.

I feel that by just giving up and not accepting new or unusual looking Carpets because we don't know what to call them, we're cheating ourselves out of working with some of the most beautiful specimens out there. Irian Jaya Carpets have only been in the pet trade for 8-9 years, so I think there's a lot we have yet to see. The imports that Ben Siegel had last year really speak volumes when you think about it that way.

From an appearance standpoint, I don't think these are quite as different as they appear to be when you initially glance at them. When you really look at them up close, and then look at a "normal" one in detail, you can see that the pattern is simply reduced, but the colors remain the same.

What really makes me discount the Jungle x Irian Jaya theory is the fact that all three of these are different ages, and have come from different parts of the country. And, as I'm sure you know, there are tons of Jungles out there, and they vary even more than the animals that we consider Irian Jayas. So, for all three to be hybrids, and look nearly identical, I'd think that they would have to have be made using the same "recipe." By that, I mean that all three breeders would have had to pair the same "appearance type" of JCP up with the same "appearance type" of Irian Jaya, to get babies that look so identical. This could have happened, but I'd say that the odds are more likely that the animals are either wild caught or just an unusual appearance (high yellow pattern) of Irian Jaya.

About my research so far...

I had my friend Gary Quirk (the local breeder that produced my '01 Irian Jayas and all of my female breeder Ball Pythons) come over this weekend, and I showed him the one that I already have. He said that he believes that they are M. s. variegata (or harrisoni, however you want to look at it) and that he has seen a couple of fresh imports that looked like that. He theorized that the reason we don't see more of this type, is because they may come from a "relatively harder to get to" population on the island. To me, that does make sense, when you're talking about such a diverse range, that happens to be about the size of Texas. I really trust Gary's opinion, since he was one of the first to work with the subspecies, and I think that he will be of a lot of help in pinning these down. In fact, he actually provided scale counts of imported animals (including the parents of my CBB '01s), etc. to help Hoser describes them as a subspecies, back in the early to mid 90's. He still has that data, so once they shed, I'm going to get scale counts from all three, and then compare that data to his data from several imports that he brought in back in the mid 90's.

About the color. It's funny you mention that. The one I have just shed, and to my dismay, has dulled out considerably. In fact, the yellow is unfortunately now a dull tan/brown color. I think (hope) that it may just be due to the fact that it was off feed and had a terrible shed. I don't know why, but it didn't shed for 12 days after it went blue, and the skin started to look really dry even though the humidity was in the 70% range.

I'm glad you like them though. It's kinda spooky how our taste in snakes is so similar. Who knows...you might end up getting a pair of their babies from me some day. Even more incentive for me to find out what they are. lol

....Another point to bear in mind is that pretty much all of the IJs in captivety come from the Merauke area.
A friend of mine in England has some imports from another locality in New Guinea (I don't know where) that look for all the world like the "Jaguar" carpets. When you mentioned the reduced pattern, it made me think of them, though his don't look anything like JCPs.
Someone really needs to get down there with a tent and a load of camera film and sort this whole thing out (I'd go myself but I have a verucca).

G

I know what you mean. There's some really cool IJs out there, that us folks in the US hardly ever see. This group of IJs that I'm putting together do not look Jungle-ish to me at all. They do have a very reduced pattern and a deep black, but the yellow is just much too bright at such a young age. They also have a bit of the orange at the bottom of the black saddles, which to me is a dead give away.

I can see how someone would think Jungle at first, but after I really looked at mine, it seems almost obvious that they're plain old Irian Jayas without as much black pattern as normal.

Oh well, I'm going to do everything I can to get to the bottom of this.