Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello to all! I have a bout 20 baby dragons that I purchased from a private breeder. we had originally purchased 50 we sold some an lost about 15. They all eat fine and drink water they get kale and collard greens and lobster roaches! hot spot temp 95 to 100 degrees ambient temp around 82 to 85 they are kept 4 to a 66 qt rubber maid box!

Please help we have had them since the end of july and some are still at the size they were when we bought them!

thanks Paul

Had 50 and lost 15? Some not growing....

Although some babies may not thrive for awhile, when you have stats like the ones above, if all their heat, UVB, supplements and food needs are met, the first thing I would think and get tested for a viral infection. Most often Adenovirus in clutches. This is very serious and if a possibility, they should never been sold to exposed to other dragons as it is highly contagious.

You also have the possibility that these babies were very inbreed.... a few generations and are just not genetically healthy.

We have taken in about a dozen non thriviing dragons, that we were sure was clear of viral infection and got them all growing good but 1. The only change we made in their husbandry was good quality MV UBV lights and some Florida Sunshine. One little male just did not grow, no matter what we did, but the others went from 1, 5, 15 and 25 grams at 7 months to all over 200 grams at a year and continuing to grow. Some that came in at 1 yr old, under 100 grams are all close to 400 grams now.

UVB and light intensity is what got them turned around and growing.
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www.reptilerooms.com

What about those basking temps Cheri? 95 to 100 is way too low for hatchlings isn't it? They should have a basking temp of at least 110 and 115 would be better. Mine eat better when the basking temps are higher. Celeste was having the same problem with one of her females and she raised the ambient temp to 90 and it helped appetite.

I do agree with light intensity being a MAJOR factor in many behavioral aspects of beardies... feeding being one of the major ones....... I just fail to see how UVB could be the reason for the dragons comeback. Are you sure these people that had them had the right temps food and light intensity?

After reading what Aimee posted below written by a vet about leos not being able to utilize the suns UVB as they are nocturnal so they must get they're d3 from the food they eat and it would keep them from getting MBD.... and there is a 10 year breeder that doesn't use UVB that sales MANY healthy dragons and all they do is supplement..... They do however have great light intensity, proper temps, proper food, etc.... I just don't understand how they could do this without UVB if it was an absolute necessity. (i'm really not trying to pick a fight Cheri or start trouble I just don't understand how we can be so positive without any studies on it when it's being done with several species)

Did you have a necropsy done on any of the dragons that passed? Do you have strip lights over the cages with regular or UVB bulbs or both? I know sometimes people will get the all in one uvb and heat output bulbs and fail to realize that it's not enough light intensity for beardies to behave normally. Those temps are way to low in the basking area.

Like Cheri said the only other things I can see would cause it would be adeno virus. I had the same results from several clutches I produced a little over a year ago. Some would grow some wouldn't many died off..... It is possible that is what is happenoing to you as well there. I wouldn't sell anymore of them period untill you find out what's going on and contact the people you've sold too telling them to quarantine if they haven't and not expose the animals to any other beardies and if they have thee animals need to be quarantined as well.

You can get a fecal test done for adeno it isd 95 bucks and you will only be able to get this done by one place in the US and that is Ferguson Animal Hospital Dr Wentz (314) 524-0707

You can also have a necropsy done by the same lab they use for this new fecal exam for adeno if you have one pass on and send them the dead body. Hope that's not what it is but it is possiible and is very contagious and you really need to warn the people you've sold too untill you figure out if it is or not.

Keep us posted!

Later,
Robert
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

Are you sure these people that had them had the right temps food and light intensity?
Pretty sure, they were two breeders that advise on this forum and others. They know what they are doing.

After reading what Aimee posted below written by a vet about leos not being able to utilize the suns UVB as they are nocturnal so they must get they're d3 from the food they eat and it would keep them from getting MBD

Huge difference in beardies and leo's, you can not even compare them with the needs of a sun loving animal. Iguana's are a little more closer in their needs, and there are test on them with blood panels and 25 Hydroxy levels, those are pretty conclusive.

there is a 10 year breeder that doesn't use UVB that sales MANY healthy dragons and all they do is supplement. They do however have great light intensity, proper temps, proper food, etc.... I just don't understand how they could do this without UVB if it was an absolute necessity.

I have never seen any breeders dragons that where raised for years with no UVB and only supplememnts that did not have problems. I have seen MANY that had serious problems or problems developing sizewise, mouth gaps, arching leg bones, 25 hydroxy levels that were terrible and -2 or more bone density (the last two things that show problems long before you see visual problems)

Have you actually seen dragons raised for years this way? Thats not hatchling... but adults rasied this way? Everytime someone states they have done this, when questioned further they sold the animals after several months or a year, no contact with the buyer and do not have them to view or test anymore. The search engine here will show you that, I believe it was Tracey that questioned them about it.

(i'm really not trying to pick a fight Cheri or start trouble I just don't understand how we can be so positive without any studies on it when it's being done with several species)

No fight here, I know what I have seen in not only our beardies or rehabs, but with my own eyes and test resutls on others animals. If its been done with bearded dragons, make those dragons available for testing/viewing... but only dragons they can verify have never been exposed to UVB. Even breeder's that advise this and have really kept their dragons this way (some advise it but do not keep their own that way, or have them in sun) for a "few years" when questioned admit that UVB is beneficial or they just don't know for sure. Many times it's an expense factor.

When someone can document dragons kept this way for years, normal t-test and no indicators for calcium problems from those test.. then I will believe it, but from every indicator and actually testing we have seen.... that's not gonna happen.
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www.reptilerooms.com

I guess this is why I always stay out of the UVB discussions... I don't really understand some of the stuff your talking about at all..LOL I'm guessing that part of what your talking about is that there are other things besides D3 production that a sun loving animal gets from UVB rays? That would make sense when talking about the relationship of nocturnal to day-active reptiles. i mean if they didn't get something else wouldn't supplementing be enough just like with the leos?

Well, I guess I just thoguht I was going to be able to quit buying the UVB tubes. LOL

Thanks,
Robert
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

No problem, you never learn others view unless you ask and then you need to decide for yourself what you want to do. I have never said that dragon can not live on supplements only, but that they do not thrive to their full potential with depriving them of UVB.

UVB light have come down a lot in price the last few years. I remember when tubes were $40 each and MV were $90!, not the are as low as $11 for the tubes and $30 for MV, plus they have longer life and are being improved on all the time.

Vitamin D has a lot more function in any animals body that just calcium absorbtion, it plays a large role in hormones, including the growth hormones.

Sadly there are not studies of direct sunlight (producing UVB) on bearded dragons and all the things it effects, but if your interested in how the UVB form the sun or lights effect human bodies, here is a good link. This is one Doctors report and has anothers comments in it..... and then there is the links at the bottom of that page for more info.
Valuable Insights Into the Importance of Vitamin D and Sun

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www.reptilerooms.com

Here's Spud this summer. When Cheri got her I think she weighed about 20 grams at 6 months. I got her at 1 1/2 years and she weighed 150 grams. Now at 2 years and 3 months she weighs over 300 grams. She is my petite girl!

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Stacey

She looks so happy too and nice color. Hard to imagine she was such a tiny thing when she arrived here in June of '03.

I think she is living proof too, that they can continue to grow into the 2nd year. In that group, I think at 7 months (I need to check this as it might be 10 months, but I think it was 7) they were

Bean was 1 gr (hardly moved the gram scale) but had the biggest gain of all of them
Spud was 5 grams
Cammie was 15
Sissy was 25

All of them got to 300 or more. Not bad for where they were at for so many of those first several months.
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www.reptilerooms.com

SHEESH! 5 grams! I knew it was something really tiny! She is the coolest little dragon. Thank you for saving her life. I couldn't imagine not having my little Spudster!
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Stacey

Cheri is right. I've not had to deal with the Adenovirus, but I know some breeders that have had nothing but problems. It is extremely contagious. Airborne, I think. You can do a google search on it & see if the symptoms match your problems. Good luck.
Cricket

Also, it effects leopard geckos too. So if you have any of these, be sure to quarantine them.
Cricket

Cheris' site reptilerooms.com has quite a bit of info on the adenovirus...... Many good articles and peoples experiences with it too.

Later,
Robert
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson