Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted a comment to LadySharon saying that Garter snakes are Placental Vivapary: Birth of fetuses that underwent their entire development inside the mother, with which they where connected by a placental organ. probably the most familiar snake with placental development is the Garter Snake.

WingedWolf stated that they are ovovioparus, more know as viviopary: giving birth to "ready to hatch" fetuses or young that have already hatched inside the mothers body but not nurished by the mother. Like boas, vipers, and pit vipers.

I ogt these definitons from the book "Breeding and keeping Snakes" by Dr. Dieter Schmidt. I am confused now on how garters really give birth?? Not that I want to prove anyone wrong, its just that I always thought that garter snakes go through Placental development.....

Interesting topic........what does everyone have to say.....Thanks WingedWolf....we should get good replies on this one

My two cents:

Ok... As I stated in another post My florida blue garter snake first gave "birth" to 3 still born... and a bunch of "slugs" or unfertlized eggs. These are marble sized,roundish ambor colored "lumps"

Also my ribbon who has never been with a male snake recently had a faulse pregnacy and also passed thouse.

I belive if it is as you say that they are nurished (like mammles) directly from mom and not in an egg then the snake would not pass these "lumps"/"slugs" or whatever you want to call them.

I belive that they DO grow in an egg inside mom until they are ready to be birthed, at this point the eggs outer layer has become so thin that it breaks upon birthing... so just by observation I think WingedWolf's reply is more accurate. Though I would be interested in knowing for sure.
- Sharon

its published in a book is what Im saying....maybe the book is wrong, but it is a great book.

Lu

Trouble is snakes can't read . . . I wasn't aware that any snakes are placental. Could be wrong but . . .
e

I just want to find out if what Im reading is true or not. I mean the book is great and goes into good detail. I wonder who we can email to find out??

Lu

I would think Scott Felzer or Brian Macker could give you the answer your looking for. I assume he has his email address on his website. I have a link at the bottom of this message to his website. Take care, Scott.
Scott Felzer

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Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws.
But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
—Martin Luther King Jr

Snakes develop as eggs in the mother. The eggs techincally hatch inside her. Then she "gives birth." Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

This is a little snippet from the web.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/therapsd.htm

indeed, the African Chameleons and the American Garter Snakes both possess primitive placental structures similar to those in mammals),

There are others, if you look.

Thanks alot guys nice discussion. American Garter snakes are placental vivipary and thanks alot for the replies. Nice goin Kikai!!

"since some snakes and lizards give live birth (indeed, the African Chameleons and the American Garter Snakes both possess primitive placental structures similar to those in mammals)"

Now that we know that garters are placental vivipary, I know I am gonna feed my females the best when they are gravid. Vitamins and all!!

Kikai, all I needed was a backup form of written data to try and get this out and known a little better. Now everyone will know that Baby garter snakes are nourished by the mother. Nice Job and thanks for the help.

Lu

Nope, sorry....the authors were mistaken. It's easy to see why, if you hunt around on the web. People can't seem to keep track of their viviparous or ovoviparous snakes.
However, if you specifically look for ovoviparous references, garter snakes come up.

I believe that the rattlesnakes are viviparous, though. I was actually surprised to find out that some snakes were viviparous and had a primitive placental structure. But garters are not among them. Garters are born inside a membrane with yolk remnant visible, and, as has been mentioned, they pass infertile slugs. I've seen them born, and can attest to this--I had some still births, and the babies each had an umbilical attached to an incompletely absorbed yolk sack within the membrane.

Ovoviparity is actually pretty uncommon, but Thamnophis is one genus that's known for it. Some authors will also chuck the entire concept of ovoviparity, and refer to all ovoviparous snakes as viviparous simply because they "give live birth".

I disagree. Check these references.

Prof. Daniel Blackburn (LSC 247) - Functional Morphology & Reproductive Biology of Vertebrates

My current research concentrates on the structure, function, and evolution of reproductive specializations in reptiles ö particularly features associated with the reproductive pattern of viviparity (live-bearing reproduction). This work draws heavily on microscopic anatomy, and students interested in working with me ideally should gain experience with electron microscopy, during or (even better) before their senior year. Our excellent new EM facilities in the LSC and McCook, and my Fall course Biology 350, offer a wonderful opportunity for Trinity students to learn techniques of immense value to biologists. I do have an option for students who wish to focus their attention at the level of light microscopy. Research of several of my recent students has resulted in collaborative research publications or presentations at scientific meetings.

• Placental formation and fetal nutrition in live-bearing squamates.
In viviparous lizards and snakes, embryos develop inside the pregnant female, and are sustained by means of placental organs. My main research interest is in understanding the structure, function, and evolution of these placentas. Our current work is focusing on how anatomical characteristics of the placental membranes of viviparous snakes enhance provision of oxygen, water, and nutrients to the fetus during the three-month gestation period. This work involves examination of the cytology and development of the uterus and extraembryonic membranes, using light and electron microscopy.

www.myherp.com/michigan/snakes.htm
(see Eastern Garter Snake)

Professor of Biology
Department of Biological Sciences
University of Idaho
Moscow, ID 83844-3051

Phone: 208-885-7749
FAX: 208-885-7905
E-mail: rolfi@uidaho.edu

Ph.D., 1980
University of Oregon
RESEARCH INTERESTS:
Reproductive Physiology of Lower Vertebrates
RESEARCH SUMMARY:
I am a comparative physiologist interested in the physiology of fish gametes, the effect of endocrine disrupting chemicals on reproductive aspects of the lower vertebrates and in maternal-fetal interactions in viviparous vertebrates. Recently, we have focused our research on understanding the role of adenosine triphosphate (ATP) in salmonid sperm and egg motility and fertility and on the ability and mechanism of carbon dioxide to reversibly inhibit sperm motility. ATP turns over quickly in the sperm and we are examining whether this turnover (and its associated requirement for nutrient usage) is reduced in vivo by carbon dioxide from normal metabolism in the male. In addition, we have been examining the role(s) and fate of extracellular ATP, are involved in studies of the effects of endocrine disrupting chemicals on embryonic and larval development and function in amphibians and maintain interests in elucidating the mechanisms involved in gas and nutrient transfer to the fetus in viviparous
(Note: Lab assistant holding Pacific Northwest Garter Snake)

srmwww.gov.bc.ca/risc/pubs/tebiodiv/snakes/snakml20-01.htm

(Garter snake: Viviparous)

Reference to garters as ovoviparous, along with photos: http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~rwhitmor/wman224/Lectures/Reptilia 4.pdf

Rough one, eh? I wonder who REALLY knows?

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/thamnophis/t._sirtalis$narrative.html

This one's in another language, but pretty clear: http://www.chez.com/repti/fichethamnophis.htm

http://www.biokids.umich.edu/critters/information/Thamnophis_sirtalis

Another possibility is that some species of Thamnophis are ovoviparous while others are viviparous!

I think you're ahead by a nose, but the jury is still out.

Quoted by WingedWolf:

"Rough one, eh? I wonder who REALLY knows?"

GOD.

- Sharon
PS... how do you quote without doing a cut and paste? I remember you used to be able to quote the old message here.

Ha! I think you may be right, in that we may never know. Some people use viviparous/ovoviviparous interchangeably.