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I have noted a behavior in my pair of Oxyrhopus that's been a puzzle and I was wondering if anyone has had, or has heard of, a similar behavior in this species. At irregular (widely spaced) times, the snakes puff out their throats. I assume that it's some sort of "threat display" but have no supporting evidence for this idea. It happened again, and I did get a photo that is now up on my web site. Just scroll down to "The Collection" and you'll locate a few paragraphs and some pics of the animals.

Thanks

Link

There are snakes that puff out their throats as threat displays, like the red-tailed rat snake, Gonyosoma sp. Generally, snakes that have such displays have elongated throats with markings in between scales to enhance the display. Your Oxyrhopus rhombifer's don't seem to have this. Also, from your description they sustained the display for a period of time, most threat displays are short and direct at whatever initiated them. I have seen snake with upper respitory problems hold their necks in that fashion, usually filled with mucus. You could gently rub their throats forward and see if anything comes out to test for that. If they are healthy, my guess is its mimicry meant for camouflage and not a threat display. The unusual red band this snake has behind its head, in my mind, would support that it has some kind of strange display. I say that because I keep jeweled racers that have unusual blue neck markings and a corresponding display. By undulating their necks, the markings create the illusion that they are moving forward. They use this confuse predators.

I agree with most of the points that you made... I did check carefully for overt signs of infection. There was no gaping of the mouth, and when I looked inside it, there were no signs of mucous or redness. I should also add that on two of the occasions, the snakes had eaten the previous evening and it's my impression that snakes with oral or respiratory infections do not eat. As far as mimicry goes - I'm at a loss as to what type of species it might be mimicing. At this point, my best guess is that it is some type of threat display - but as you note, these types of displays usually don't last very long and this one does.

I keep O.r. and have also kept petola as well. I have never seen that kind of display and I don't think they are designed structuraly to do that. The is a snake that is not built like a boomslang or spilotes...this is a Coral Snake mimic.

my advise is to get it to a vet fast. It sounds like the start of a serious respiratory problem.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Well, I'm beginning to think that this is one of the most interesting species I have ever dealt with. I received an e-mail from another individual who has kept O.r. and he wrote "I believe I noticed this swelling also in my snake but could not figure it out either and it was not a respiratory infection."
And then there's this evening... I looked at the snake to check on the neck and found that the swelling had largely migrated posteriorly. There is still some immediately behind the jaw (not under it as it was a few days ago) but the most interesting feature is that the swelling is now prominent behind the neck. I palpated the swelling and did not feel anything out of the ordinary. One thing I did see was that the snake was somewhat agitated - it didn't try to bite, but it did defecate.
As far as a vet goes - it is, in theory, a good idea... I just wish I could find a local vt who knows more than I do - and believe me, I'm in no way boasting. The last vet I went to did an X-Ray of my egg-bound Mexican Milk, "Well, I can see fecal masses" he said. "No, I think those are eggs" I said. "No, those are fecal masses". "No" I said... He eventually removed several eggs (succesfully).
Here's a pic I took this evening:

That does not look healthy.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

That snake is a sibling to the one I had which three months ago suffered from fatty tumors. I did not notice the inflammation from the link your provided as the pic was blurred, but now that I see this pic, your snake has what mine started to have, fatty tumors. I hope it is not the same condition but within weeks, my snake had a dozen and I froze it. Sorry. Perhaps a genetic thing? Hopefully something else like a swollen venom gland or other type of infection?

Dan

A question occured to me....I am wondering if the tumor growth (if that is what this is) might have been stimulated by stress. I'm kind of theorising that irritation to the throat could trigger a dormant condition. Just a thought.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

There is ample evidence that stress is one of the strongest toxic agents in mammals. There are no organ systems that stress cannot adversely affect and I would not be surprised if the condition I'm seeing in the Oxyrhopus is not, in some part, due to stress. I have no hard evidence for the following - simply my opinion: I have repeatedly heard people describe difficultes in keeping some WC animals healthy as being due to the fact that they were "heavily parasitized". Well, the parasite levels may be high but we tend to forget that the snakes did not become "heavily parasitized" after they were caught - they were surviving and reproducing with a full parasite load before they were captured. The health problems in captivity begin when the stress of capture, shipment, and/or changed environment in captivity lowers their immune systems - then the parasites begin to overwhelm the animal. When an animal is CB, these stress factors aren't operating - it is born in a cage and quickly becomes acclimated to its environment. I believe that this lack of systemic stress is the reason CB animals do well - not the fact that they eat clean food and drink clean water. If clean food and water were a necessity for survival, there wouldn't be any snakes in the wild. Bottom line - a captive snake can go without food and water or a clean cage for some time without problems. What it can't handle is unusual levels of stress that may be induced by those conditions.

It is a fact that many snakes carry a load of parasites in the wild. Many snakes die from this that we never see. The rest are strong enough that their systems are not seriously affected...that is till we put them through the stress of capture and shipment. This is something the snake was not designed to deal with. As a result the stressed snake becomes weaker and the delicate control is lost.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Well, If we have ruled out a display of some kind, and upper respitory issues, then that leaves a gastrointestinal type problem. You said that is happening after meals? What are you feeding them?I would have a vet check a stool sample, and treat with a triple sulfur type medication just to make sure.

I haven't been able to get to a Vet in person as yet but I have been e-mailing a man who is on the Faculty of the local Vet School. I dealt with him previously re: disease in snakes and he was helpful. It's my experience (although fortunately limited) that vets who are intersted in snake diseases aren't all that common. In any case, he made an interesting suggestion - he said that he had some doubts about the idea of tumors (as I did) because of their persistence and wondered if the swelling could be due to a temporary fluid build-up (edema). The idea is appealing because this is something that can certainly appear and disappear within a few days. I checked the female yesterday morning and found that the swelling didn't seem to be as pronounced behind the neck but it was more so immediately behind the jaw. I also noted that the snake is pre-shed. I have looked for detailed information about the process of shedding but haven't been able to find anything as yet. I was under the impression that it involves some fluid that separates the older skin from the newer (the cause of the "blueing over the eyes etc.). In any case, I checked my records around the times that this swelling occurred previously and there just may be a pattern:

4-16-04: Swelling in female noted. 4-23-04: female noted as pre-shed
5-28-04: Swelling noted in both female and male. 5-28-04: Female pre-shed. 6-17-04: Male pre-shed (male did not eat on 6-10 indicating that it may have been pre-shed earlier. Pre-shedding condition is not as easy to see in this species as in others).

Perhaps this whole thing is a pre-shedding problem triggered by some factor in their environment.

Neil, I perhaps was not clear or explain it good enough, but I do not think your swelling is a fatty tumor, at least not yet. What I meant was that my snake, which was a sibling of your snake, exhibited similiar symptoms with the lower jaw swelling. To me it seemed to come and go, but I cannot recall everything. And a tumor would never grow and shrink without treatment, however the tissue around it might be influenced by its development and that could swell or shrink????????

In any case, it was MONTHS after I noticed this jaw swelling problem that had gone away that my snake developed lumps on its sides and its neck again, then it quickly developed them all over its body and even the lower neck area where I determined it would not be able to swallow another food item. And the snake was still with a good tounge, happy, hungry, no symptoms of distress, just lumpy as heck.

When I did palpate its neck when filled with tumors, it did remind me of the neck swelling it had months before however it was much more severe at the time.

And often snakes swell their heads and bodies when shedding to make them look quite deformed, but I think this is not the case.

I hope the best for your snake and fatty tumors in humans are common and not linked to diet or anything for that matter, so perhaps this is genetic or related to the exersize of the animal? Who knows, but this is why the hobby is so fun but disappointing at times.

Dan

I agree that fluid is more likely, but is it just under the skin or in the throat. In the throat would suggest a respitory infection under the skin could also be a serious skin infection, and not necessarily benign. if the throat doesn't have fluid it could be gas, implying gastroentris. If it was me, I'd take it to a vet during an outbreak and have some test done. if fluid can be extracted it can be tested for bacteria etc. Any vet can handle taking the sample and sending it to a lab for testing. As far as the results are concerned, you can do your own research based on what you find, if you don't trust the vets judgement.

If you can't find a herp vet try www.arav.com. Keep in mind that not all herp vets are members but it is definatly a sign that your vet is dedicated to herps if he/she is.
Keep in mind that you may have to travel a bit, but it beats guessing what it is. All the internet research in the world won't treat your snake.

Also in response to an above post, I'd just like to add that freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is archaic and cruel. The cells begin to freeze and crystalize before death is achieved. If you can relate to frost bite, or liquid nitrogen ect. then you can imagine that freezing to death is like burning to death. Chemical euthanasia as performed by a vet is still considered one of the most humane methods. Other physical techniques are used in laboratories or other areas where chemicals are undesirable but these should not be attempted by reptile keepers as if not performed with 100% accuracy further pain and suffering will be endured.