Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Consider moss in your cage a fungus factory

One of the most serious fungus your tegu can get from it is Sporothrix schenckii .

Not only can your tegu get this fungus from it but you can also so if you want to avoid the problem you will heed this advice and not use it in your tegus cage .

I know there are some pages out there that recomend using it for tegus .. those pages that recomend it are written by people who don't have a clue .

You can find out more about this fungas here
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/sporotrichosis_g.htm
-----
Stella St.Pierre
www.bluetegu.com - Ron St.Pierre

I am a very open minded person. I respect the experiences of others, but I don't jump into a conclusion without full details. If someone furnishes proper information I am also willing to weigh my current beliefs with the new facts.

Facts are that many people believe "moss" is bad, many people believe "some moss" is good. I believe both are correct. Most moss is indeed bad for any reptile, but some moss types, such as Spaghnum Moss, can be used safely for your tegu. The keyword is safely, you have to keep in mind that anything not cared for correctly can become dangerous.

I will present some facts about Sphagnum Moss with this link..

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/m/mossph54.html

which states that it is used medically. A highly dangerous moss would not be used on an open wound.

If you want to say "All moss is going to infect you or your pet" you need to add "if you don't use it carefully and correctly" otherwise you may be in error with your statement. You need to realize that Spaghnum Moss has been used as a dressing for wounds for over 30 years. This means the Spaghnum Moss needs to be grown and taken care of correctly, it needs to be prepared correctly and it needs to be used correctly. Failure to use proper care may (notice, I said 'may' and not 'will') cause fungal infections and possibly respiratory issues.

Saying "All moss is fungal" is like saying "All lizards will give you salmonella". Do lizards carry salmonella? Many do, but if we handle them and care for them correctly we will be fine.

To back up that statement I will point you to this link...

http://www.icomm.ca/~dragon/salmonella.htm

which states..

-- Start Quote --

Did you know that in one study, that was not species specific, of animals that had already died of various illnesses:

50% of snakes and lizards were found to carry salmonella, and
7% of the turtles carried salmonella as well
30% of dogs tested also carry a salmonella bacteria

So if you have say four reptiles, you could consider that perhaps 2 of them are infected with salmonella.

Estimated Infection rate in Reptiles

Species Percentage infected

Lizards 36-77%

-- End Quote ---

The link Stella posted is accurate...

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/sporotrichosis_g.htm

which states..

-- Start Quote --

"Persons handling thorny plants, sphagnum moss, or baled hay are at increased risk of getting sporotrichosis."

-- End Quote --

Notice "at increased risk of". This means that it is possible, it does not mean it will 'always' happen. Yes, "at increased risk of" sounds bad, but I remember as a teen, working all day and evening loading bailed hay from the field onto trucks & trailer beds, then from there into the barn and then up to the loft. Though I was at increased risk, I never got infected. Also keep in mind that if you have to cross the road to check your mail every morning you are "at increased risk of" getting run over. It doesn't generally happen if you are careful, but if you don't pay attention it could.

I do not think you should put moss in your tank and leave it, molding and wet without any care in the world. You do indeed raise your risk of getting a fungus.

If I was to assume that no one would use any care with using sphagnum moss, I too would say no one should use it. I have used it correctly and never had any issues. I know a local vet that recommends it.

Let me leave the post saying that though I respect everyone's opinion, the reader should not take any one persons advice. I will continue to do what has worked for me and I feel secure in my choice, but it is my choice to make. You, as a reader and tegu keeper, should go read anything and everything you can and make an informed choice based on all of the collected information. If anyone has a scientifically proven paper that stating what percentage of tegus (or lizards in general) have gotten a bacteria or fungus while the proper use of sphagnum moss was employed.. I would really like the information.
-----
Rick
theTegu.com

New Tegu Community: theTegu.com - Webcam: Tux.theTegu.com

For the first time, I am getting a headache on here. I do not post much, but I find it necessary to do so now.

I respect peoples opinions, views, ideas, but become confused when there are contradictions in husbandry care. A lot of people who come here are looking for the best, most informed answers, and I personally feel some of the best Tegu owners out there are here who can give the best answers based off of years of experience.

Why? Well it is simple...studies and "scientific" experiments are great resources for general data gathering. Real-life situations under anything other than the exact environment that the study was done could provide different results. Different environments can provide different answers. Different Tegus can provide different results. Maybe the air is different where you are, maybe pressure is different, maybe I do not know what the heck any of that would mean, but I can tell you that every environment and keeper is different which would throw off most "scientific" studies.

The problem with this thread is this...

Rick, you state on here

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=645524,645875

the following...

"And I guess it may be better to err on the side of safety since there is really no reason not to stick a UVB bulb in there since it hurts nothing. Right?"

yet you yourself say there are possible risks with using moss and it can be dangerous under different scenarios and circumstances of the mosses creation+handling+environment and per the keepers actions. If you wanted to err on the side of caution, then it would make sense not to stick with a recommendation that "could" be dangerous when there are many other avenues to approach cracked skin that are proven to work without repercussions?

I am all about collaboration, but sticking to an admittedly dangerous solution for the reason of not seeing a scientific study is quite confusing to me and unproductive in providing a viable safe solution to readers.

I am only posting this as an opinion and not a post to seek a response as it would be uneventful and I need to go take some aspirin after typing this... :{}
-----
1.1.0 Argentine B/W Tegu
1.1.0 Red Tegu
1.3.0 Blue Tegu
1.0.0 Albino Tegu

My original post was to point out several options to help raise the humidity to aid in shedding. One of these being putting some clean damp sphagnum moss (herein referred to as 'moss') into the hide for a few hours daily.

This would be beneficial to a tegu having issues shedding. This is a method used by myself, recommended by local vets for many species of reptiles and learned by me from a reptile hobbiest. It works, I use it when a reptile is having issues shedding.

The point I am making is that by using fresh/clean moss and only for a few hours, it is very unlikely to have any ill effects, but is proven to be a great way to moisturize a shedding tegu.

There were replies that using moss was like creating a 'fungus farm' if I recall correctly. Though wet moss can mold and promote fungus, it takes more then a few hours. So if someone doesn't have the knowledge to remove the damp moss and replace with fresh damn moss daily, it may become fungal.

If the reply to my post was something along the line of "If you are going to use moss in your enclosure, be sure not to leave it there for more then a few hours or it may become a fungas factory." I would have agreed 100%, but to say any use of moss will result in fungas is like saying crossing the road will get you run over.

Err in the side of safety? Sure. Don't use moss at all. That's ok, but there is no need to put down a method that does work just because it could cause fungus if the moss isn't removed daily. That would be like saying handling reptiles will infect you with salmonella. Which you are indeed at high risk of if you don't wash your hands after handling your reptile, but do we say "Don't handle reptiles"? No. We all agree washing our hands after handling them is required.

As far as the headache; I appologize, but I am at least glad I was involved in getting a lurker to post. *smiles*

Let me summerize...

Is leaving damp moss in your reptile enclosure overnite bad? Yes, it could cause fungal issues.

Is using clean fresh damp moss in your reptiles hide for a few hours bad? No. It will not become fungal in a few hours. This is a method used by many people with many species of reptiles for helping with humidity and shedding.

Is it better to err in the side of safety and not use moss at all? Sure, but you shouldn't make it sound like people who use moss occassionally and for aiding in shedding are doing something wrong.

-------

I am curious how many people here have used moss occassionally and didn't leave it in their enclosure for more then a few hours, but still had fungus issues. Maybe a poll would be a good, honost way to figure out some statitics on this subject.
-----
Rick
theTegu.com

New Tegu Community: theTegu.com - Webcam: Tux.theTegu.com

I respect your decision to do as you have been doing and wait for someone to do a 'scientific study' to prove the point one way or another, but I disagree about not taking any one person's opinion. With the number of years that Stella and her husband have been succesfully breeding and raising tegus, vs. your above stated experience of caring for tegus, I'm afraid I'd suggest to anyone to follow Stella's advice on this or anything else relating to tegus. I'm sure that there are alternatives to the moss that will not create even the possibility of a fungus problem, and if someone of Stella's reputation even suggests that it could be a problem, that's good enough for me.

Take care,
Leslie

There are other ways to raise the humidity and moisturize a reptile, soaking is always the best method (I posted that previously as well), you can't beat 100% hydration.

I guess at this point I would like to know from Stella if she is saying that sphagnum moss shouldn't be used because most people wouldn't do it with care and would end up hurting their tegu because they would end up using damp moss as a substrate or if she honestly feels that a few hours of exposure to damp sphagnum moss inside a hide would cause sporotrichosis.

I am really interested in her detailed opinion. To get to the bottom of this discussion I'd even be willing to go as far as contacting a few people at the local college and seeing if someone has done any botanical research on the subject or if they would.
-----
Rick
theTegu.com

New Tegu Community: theTegu.com - Webcam: Tux.theTegu.com

I doubt that botanical research would contain use with tegus, so it would be of little use to keepers.

Also, if you are going to suggest something be used just because you personally have had no problems, then perhaps I should suggest to others my own private opinion that soaking causes more shedding problems than it solves. Soaking dries out the natural lubrication in the tegu's skin, just like it does our skin. It also seems to make the skin thicker and cause more difficult sheds. However, since this is just my own opinion, albeit one that has worked for me, and does not have the 'scientific proof' or, indeed the concurrance of any of the long term keepers, I have kept my opinion to myself, rather than possibly mislead some other keeper with what may be just my uninformed opinion.

I'd just as soon not cause someone's tegu a problem based upon anyone following my opinion. But then, I'm the first to admit that I'm new to this tegu keeping and have a lot to learn.

Leslie

I think soaking is ok for short periods, but I agree that over soaking could cause issues as you stated. I am not claiming to be an authority on tegus. I am claiming we should know more and assume less. I am going to make a new thread with a simple statement, one that if fact based on my short few years of experience. I am going to ask anyone who has done the same as me and their tegu did contract a fungas, to post. This seems to be the way everyone feels the facts will come out. Scientific facts, botanical facts, etc don't seem to be the way to prove anything to anyone, so lets see what peoples real experiences are?

Sounds fair right? I don't want to prove I am right. I want someone to prove the truth. Prove me right, prove me right, I don't care. I just want the facts.
-----
Rick
theTegu.com

New Tegu Community: theTegu.com - Webcam: Tux.theTegu.com

If there is any health risk at all and there are alternative materials achieving the same result why would one choose to put their animal at risk, I think is the point being missed? In my opinion practical experience is far more valuable than a study particularly in this case. To quote studies done on anything other than a Tegu would be irrelevant in my opinion. The fact is Tegus are not one of the more studied reptile species. There is very little captive information or otherwise. This leaves us to rely heavily on those who can pass on practical experience. In my opinion.

Why not take good advice, it's free? Peace!
-----
Peace!
KofSeattle
Reptile-Like
Here lizard lizard.........

Ok, let's forget rumors or lack of scientific statistics and do a practical test.

On your advice I started this thread. Let's get to the bottom of this.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=646146,646146
-----
Rick
theTegu.com

New Tegu Community: theTegu.com - Webcam: Tux.theTegu.com

KofSeattle - I tried to get that point across, but as you can see, it is far from being looked at.

Rick, please add to your message in the seperate post the following...

1. Make sure you know the actual difference between sphagnum moss and sphagnum moss...no typo because companies are selling moss labeled as sphagnum moss and it is actually not true sphagnum moss.

2. Make sure you know that whether fresh or old, that the moss is subject to spores that can be passed from insertion into the environment immediately based off of factors that you must be an expert on in order to control to a degree.

3. Make sure you are familiar on the heating and cooling of moss and the drying out techniques in order to scale down your chances of spores.

Or you could simply use other techniques stated in this forum that do not carry a risk.

Oh, I forgot, I used moss 1 time many years ago on my Asian WM and he got a wicked fungi. Not a Tegu, but not worth it then or now. Since I do not care to keep trash around, I cannot tell you the name, origin, etc. I have had salmonella as well, along with my entire family and ended up in the hospital. This was many years ago as well. I have not used moss since then, and I have not had salmonella again...those are facts from experience. I learned from them by experience of what worked for me and what did not.

No one is saying you did not have success with moss, some people have said...more than 1, that they have had problems with it and recommend against it because there are other suitable solutions out there. Your solution was simply not recommended by others because it is simply not worth the variables that exist.

Finally, I am sure it was a typo, but it was ironic the line..."prove me right, or prove me right" - I got a good laugh on that one. Thanks for cheering me up!
-----
1.1.0 Argentine B/W Tegu
1.1.0 Red Tegu
1.3.0 Blue Tegu
1.0.0 Albino Tegu

It seems that the majority of posters here would prefer to believe the status quo rather then do any actual discussion or research. Anyone who steps outside the status quo and questions the "facts" is just going to get crapped on. Discussion is ok as long as everyone agrees with everyone else. That's pretty close-minded, but that's you choice.

As far as taking advise, I have advice from a person who has 20 years with reptiles in general who stated damp sphagnum peet moss is great to use for occassional shedding issues and contridicting advise from someone who has raised tegus for just as long who says all moss is bad. So who am I to believe? I have used the sphagnum peet moss for several years with complete success. Who would you believe? Would you question which is fact? Wouldn't you want to know the true facts? Or would you prefer to be ignorant of the facts and just go with the flow and stick with status quo?

Well, I'd like Stella's detailed opinion and I am going to seek more details from any source I can until I find out how this works for me and others locally without issues, yet some feel that any exposure to sphagnum peet moss will cause fungus issues.

On a side note, to adjust your beliefs...

Salmonella lives in the intestinal tract, it does not come from moss or spores. It can however come from not properly washing your hands after handling birds, reptiles, etc. and can be passed from you to your family members.
-----
Rick
theTegu.com

New Tegu Community: theTegu.com - Webcam: Tux.theTegu.com

Mabye be more specific nexit time. Peetmoss is different then Sphg moss.

I never claimed any type of moss. I stated moss. I didn't recall the type I used in my original post. I was told what to use years ago and I bought a bag where I get my cypress mulch and it has worked so I passed on the info.

The name "sphagnum moss" was brought up by someone else and I recalled the name. I then checked for the brand and I posted the exact brand and name of what I was told to use.

I just did a search on the differences between the sphagnum moss and sphagnum peat moss.

Some info I found..

"Sphagnum peat moss is the dead material that accumulates in the lower levels of the peat bog. Sphagnum moss, on the other hand, is the LIVING moss that grows on top of a sphagnum bog.

A fungal disease called Cutaneous sporotrichosis has been found in several kinds of organic material. This disease causes an infection in humans that is identified by ulcerous skin lesions. One material known to carry the sporotrichosis fungus is sphagnum moss. Sphagnum peat moss does not carry the fungus."

I think this has all turned out to be a matter of misunderstanding. I should have looked up the brand and name of the moss I used and posted that in my first post as well. I didn't even realize there where two types of sphagnum moss.

This has still turned out to be a productive post. I learned something and I am sure others have as well. It turns out both Stella and the other who originally gave me this advice years ago were correct.

Sphagnum moss under certain conditions can carry the sporotrichosis fungus.

Sphagnum peat moss does not.

So, to me this issue is resolved. Thanks to eveyone who contributed.
-----
Rick
theTegu.com

New Tegu Community: theTegu.com - Webcam: Tux.theTegu.com

Lesson number one ... there is a difference between Sphagnum moss and peat moss .

Sphagnum moss = the living moss harvested from the top of the peat bog . This moss can harbor Sporothrix schenckii and should never be left in areas where it can stay warm and moist .

Peat moss - is the dead moss that is harvested from the bottom of the peat bog . This moss does not harbor Sporothrix schenckii and is safe with most reptiles ... but use this alone in a tegus cage and it drys up hard on their toes and causes problems with sheds that can make them lose their toes .

Lets start by looking at exactly what this fungal infection looks like on human skin as it would be a heck of a lot easier to see on a human vs. a tegus patterned skin ... on this link you will find a photo of a florist with the fungus all over their arm http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ocderm15.html

Now if that didn't gross you out and you still insist that it's worth the risk using it have a look at some of these links that don't come from a crack pot sites .

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001295.htm

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/240/3/232?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=Sporotrichosis sphagnum&searchid=1101884142886_13219&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&journalcode=jama
-----
Stella St.Pierre
www.bluetegu.com - Ron St.Pierre

If you see the post I just made you will realize I just noticed the difference between the sphagnum peat moss I use and the sphagnum moss you were referring to.

You stated that the sphagnum peat moss "is the dead moss that is harvested from the bottom of the peat bog . This moss does not harbor Sporothrix schenckii and is safe with most reptiles ... but use this alone in a tegus cage and it drys up hard on their toes and causes problems with sheds that can make them lose their toes" - which is probably why years ago when I was told it was good to use damp sphagnum peat moss inside the hide, but to change it every 3 to 12 hours or so. This was probably meant to keep it from drying and clumping.

As I pointed out in my previous post, both sides were correct, there was just confusion as to which moss type we were referring to. As I stated over and over in my posts, I respect your insight and experience, but I just wanted to get to the bottom of this and to understand the facts. Instead of assuming the facts or flowing with the status quo. Now I know the facts as does everyone else who has been following these threads. This is what discussion forums are for.

Sphagnum moss may carry sporothrix schenckii and should be avoided in a tegu enclosure, but sphagnum peat moss is safe for most reptiles, but you need to take care not to let it dry or clump on your tegus feet. It can be used moist, in a hide, with care, but should probably not be used on a regular basis or as a substrate.

Thank you for your knowledge and information.
-----
Rick
theTegu.com

New Tegu Community: theTegu.com - Webcam: Tux.theTegu.com

As an fyi, you are not adjusting my beliefs on salmonella. I did not say I got it from moss. LOL I was referring to another one of your posts about analogies using salmonella as an example. I got salmonella when I was breeding yellow anacondas, way before lizards.

I am sorry if you feel "bashed" not the intent, just pointing out what has been mashed to death about staying on the safe side. Many companies sell sphagnum moss that is not true sphagnum moss. This in itself poses a problem for the many keepers not knowing the difference. Thats all.
-----
1.1.0 Argentine B/W Tegu
1.1.0 Red Tegu
1.3.0 Blue Tegu
1.0.0 Albino Tegu

read the warning at the bottom of the page

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/m/mossph54.html

Bear in mind "A Modern Herbal" was written with the conventional wisdom of the early 1900's. This should be taken into account as some of the information may now be considered inaccurate, or not in accordance with modern medicine.

This is not the 1900's and we now have accesss to a lot of information people back then did not .
Just because you find something posted on a web page and can post a link to it does not mean that the web page is accurate or factual .

For one this web page does not go into detail about how the moss was treated and sterilized first .
Now go back and read the link I posted from the centers for disease controll as it is not from a site that practices what we would today call witch doctor medicine
You should also be aware that when this sphagnum was used in world war 2 it was treated first and it was not used alone ...they added stuff to it like garlic which has natural antifungal properties . Not to mention no one did follow up studies on these vets to see how many of them contracted fungal infections after the fact ( it can have a long incubation period before a person or animal shows any signs of being infected )

People used to use a lot of things that we now consider unsafe ... cocain was added to soda etc.
If you want to live in the past and risk your life (yes your life as people have gotten this fungus themselves and DIED from it- The state of Flrodia has had mulitple of their Agriculture agents die from this fungus alone from exposure from sphagnum ) and your animals be my guest but don't say I didn't warn you .

There are strict regulations reguarding the storage of sphagnum used for the floral industry to help controll outbreaks of this fungus specifically .. those regulations are mostly specific to it's storage and keeping it dry to keep spores from reproducing . A warm moist enviroments like a tegus cages is just what this fungus needs to rapidly multiply ... if you want to keep using it that's up to you eventually you will end up conducting your own experiment and find out it's results all on your own .. it's just to bad your tegu will be the guinea pig

Stella
-----
Stella St.Pierre
www.bluetegu.com - Ron St.Pierre