Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Of all the morphs my favorites are the spiders and the stripes. I was thinking about getting a spider ball maybe next year. I was also thinking about breeding it to offset the cost. I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good breeder to get one and where I could find some information on the genetics involved spiders. I want to make sure I do my homework before I invest.

Thanks,

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Tosha

1.1.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy)
0.1.0 Siberian Husky (Kita)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
5.4.2 Fish (1,2,3,4...)
0.0.1 Frog rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.2 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

NERD initiated the morph and no doubt has the most experience of anyone breeding it so should have the best idea of anyone as to if it's completely dominant or some kind of co-dominant. I haven't seen any data of the ratios from spider X spider breedings and don't even have a good feel for how many such breedings have been done so far so don't know if the data supports or refutes the possibility that it's homozygous lethal. It may just be that not enough spiders from spider X spider breedings have been bred yet to find the expected 1:3 homozygous spiders.

I'm sure they would also be a good source to purchase one from although I suspect they are under pressure as the originator to hold prices up. I remember a few years ago they dropped their asking price a little as would be natural (especially with a dominant type morph) and some of their early customers screamed bloody murder which I think led to the price fixing that in turn lead to the sudden drop this year (as opposed to a slower more natural drop each year). They are still a heck of a lot of money but such a nice looking morph that they are high on my wish list. I think it’s natural for all morphs to fall in price and especially dominant type ones. However, since they can be reproduced so quickly (especially with a male) even if they fell by half every year you could still make a profit and of course they can’t fall forever (people will stop working so hard to breed them at some price).
NERD Spider Page

refutes the possibility that it's homozygous lethal. It may just be that not enough spiders from spider X spider breedings have been bred yet to find the expected 1:3 homozygous spiders.

Randy;

Please give this one up.

The breed is dominant and nothing more. The founder male came into the USA the same season as the first clown did. {Randy Buck, pers. comm).

Kevin held back babies and did not release the breed for a long time (how long I cannot say) specially for a dominant one in which he made many spiders in a couple of seasons. He announced albino spiders and bumblebees and ghost spiders very soon (within a year or two) after first announcing the form. Along the way he must have had had lots of spider to spider breedings to make the double mutants (both parents being het for albino or ghost)

Furthermore, Kevin is very smart. He would be testing for the illusive super and along the way would have found lethal genes as well.

The reason the next tier of breeders have not done many spider X spider breedings is simply because it is far more profitable to make bumblebees than make a few more spiders.

Done deal.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

So you are saying that it's completely dominant and the homozygous looks just like the heterozygous? I guess someone could have proven a homozygous by now and just not come forward with it. However, I think your argument that it's been around longer than known (which I don't really buy) would be in favor of something being up with us not having any public proven homozygous spiders by now.

I think the combos could be done very quickly, in only about a year. Cross the original adult spider male to an albino and get a male spider het albino. Next year cross it with an adult albino female (mom?) and get albino spiders in one year. Exact same with ghost spider, all you need is a breedable male spider, an adult female ghost, and about a year to grow up a male spider het ghost and breed back to the adult female ghost. Bumblebee would be even quicker, just one breeding.

Of course to test for a super would take a little longer because it would involve growing up a female (spider). It would take a lot of spider X spider breedings to tell if any skewed results are statistically significant and indicate something unexpected like homozygous spider being lethal vs. just an odd outcome in a small sample size. Lots of breeders like to keep their own data private so it's not likely I'll get to look for trends any time soon. I’m not saying it is homozygous lethal, I’m just pointing out that homozygous leathal is always a possibility until proven otherwise. The quickest proof would be by breeding a possible homozygous spider male to lots of female normals and producing only spiders. If it is lethal, it would take a lot longer to “prove” by it’s absence but data could help us see if it’s leaning that way.

Randy Buck of Superpets sold the first spider to Kevin the same year he sold the first Clown to Tracy. That is a fact. A mutual friend of ours saw the animals in person BEFORE Kevin and Tracy bought them.

Believe it or don't. Spiders have been around a long time.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

I don't know what year that was for the first clown import. Even if it was a lot of years before Kevin went public with his first spider babies it doesn't prove he got that imported male to breed before then (I don't remember when the official first one was either). I tend to believe that he would have posted the first year he produced but my point was that if spiders have been producing for even longer than generally know it makes it even stranger that we don't yet have a proven homozygous spider. As far as I know it's just a little strange now and it hasn't been long enough to really prove anything by the absence of a public proven homozygous spider. Maybe just due to bad luck and the amount of time it generally takes to get females up to size and bred and then get the next generation possible homozygous spider males up to size and bred a lot.

Your arguement that they have been around longer then we all believe makes a stronger arguement for what Randy Remington is mentioning as a potential explanation for the lack of a known dominant spider. If hypomelanistic boa constrictors had not produced a dominant form to this date would you be argueing that the dominant form was not possibly lethal? Kind of pointless to argue against something that is difficult to disprove as a possibility until a proven dominant spider is produced. Kinda like argueing about god, one person says god's real, another says god's fake.. Who is right? Prove a dominant is out there and the Lethal arguement is disproved, if one is never produced then its always a possibility.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

Randy sold the spider to lindy at which point the original male spider had never reproduced. SO saying that they have been around a lot longer than we know sounds like you are saying this male was bred before they bought it; which it wasnt.

Sure the original male was around a few years before kevin proved the gene, but what does that prove? It was never bred before that, so it doesnt matter if the original male was around for 50 years before. We are talking about breeding data.

When did Randy sell it to them? 99, 2000? They started selling a few snakes a year or two later..

Beau