Reptile & Amphibian Forums

>EDITORIAL IN TAMPA FLA NEWSPAPER
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> Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we continue to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries that came to live in America because it is the Country of Choice??????
> Think about it. .
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> All I have to say is, when will they do something about MY RIGHTS? I celebrate Christmas, but because it isn't celebrated by everyone, we can no longer say Merry Christmas. Now it has to be Season's Greetings. It's not
> Christmas vacation, it's Winter Break. Isn't it amazing how this winter break ALWAYS occurs over the Christmas holiday? We've gone so far the other way, bent over backwards to not offend anyone, that I am now being offended. But it seems that no one has a problem with that. This says it all!
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> This is an editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa newspaper He did quite a job; didn't he?
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> Read on, please!
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> IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.
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> I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically
> correct!" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.
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> I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some
> born here, need to understand. This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.
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> We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our
> society, learn the language!
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> "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan... We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.
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> If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE. It is Time for America to Speak up. If you agree -- pass this along; if you don't agree -- delete it!
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> AMEN
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> I figure if we all keep passing this to our friends (and enemies) it will also, sooner or later, get back to the complainers, lets all try, please
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It IS your right to say merry christmas, and christmas break. I see what your'e saying though. Im tired of all the political correctness crap myself. I understand some of it, but a lot is overkill. And, the PC stuff didnt just start since 9/11. People are just too sensitive about some things. Instead of being short, you are now vertically challenged. LOL In regards to having God in schools, I think they should just have a 30 second time where kids can pray to their god, or count the spots on the ceiling, whatever works for them. But, its kind of funny its all of these adults saying this. I said the pledge everyday and never even thought about what I was saying if I remember correctly. Its been a while. Anyway, the real problem isnt the political correctness of everything. People are just becoming more selfish these days. You get cut off in traffic, jumped in lines, everyone thinks what they have to do is more important than the next guy (or girl to be PC). What we need in this country is to have a little respect for each other. That could go a long way.

EP
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Occupants not paying rent:
7 balls
2.1.10 corns(candy cane, creamsicle, ghost, 6 normal, 4 anery )
1 pueblan milk
1 everglades rat
1 cal. king
1 gray band king
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
1 fish
1 mouse
3.3 cats

I can pretty much agree with what is said there except the "prayer in school bit." The US was formed as a nation to be tollerent of all religious faiths (or the lack thereof). I was in school back when prayer was there and it was no fun if you weren't a Christian. There was definite prejudice and discrimination if you were singled out as not being Christian. Now even though I am an atheist, have allways stood for Freedom of Religion. But that means also: Freedom From Religion.

Our founding fathers came from Europe where many were persecuted and their friends and families murdered for not having the "Right faith". They wanted to prevent that from happening here.

Ever since this country's founding, some Christian religious groups have tried to force their doctrine into our constitution. They also attempt to rewrite our history to make it look like this was ok with the founding fathers. It is part of our unique feedom that our comnstitution has mostly survived the attempts at manipulation by special interests.

It should be noted that before WW2 "Under God" was not part of the pledge of Alliegence."

Now as to P.C. Never approved of it and I think it does serious damage to our nation.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I can make my signature under every sentence this guy wrote. We have similar conditions here in Germany, I even think that we are one step ahead of you in this matter.

Several years ago the father of a child attained a verdict by the German federal supreme court that the crucifix has to be removed from the walls of the classrooms in every school.

Furthermore, Germany is overcrowded by Turkish foreign workers and their decendants in the third or even forth generation who partly don't speak our language (especially the women who rarely leave their homes). Berlin, the capital of Germany is the town with the third most Turkish inhabitants after the Turkish capital Ankara and the second biggest turkish town Istanbul. Can you imagine that?

In Germany we already have a parallel society of Muslims. There are parts in big german cities where you can live perfectly well without knowing any word of the German language. Turkish suffices.

What perturbes me most is, that the German government approves a membership of Turkey in the European community. Do you guys think that Turkey fits in the European community? I don't. But this is highly wanted by the U.S. in order to make Turkey to a counterpart to typical islamic nations like Iran.

When you are complaining about Spaniards and Mexican people in your country I tell you that you can be grateful, because they descend from the occidental tradition and fit in your society somewhat. But we (not only the Germans, but also our neighbour countries) are deluged by muslims who are NOT AT ALL willing to integrate themselves.

The birth rate of these people is at least 5 times higher than our own. The performance in the schools suffers because the teachers get classes in elementary school where a significant part of the children can not speak the German language or only insufficient.

In the Netherlands first riots occured several weeks ago after a muslim critical movie director was murdered by militant muslims.

I don't knop where all this will lead to...

Maybe you understand why most of the people here are very concerned about the war on Iraq because this stirres up hatred in the muslim world even more...

It's nice to know I'm not the only one seeing what is going on. We have to be politically correct and not offend special interests, groups yadda yadda yadda. We'd better learn to defend ourselves by defending our borders, our language and our culture. We are losing all three of them slowly but surely right now. I'm being politically correct by saying no more. Want to see more, go to my site and click the "U.S.A." button.

BTW: I had that article posted at my site about a month or so ago. Nice to see others are interested enough to study and research too.
Thanes Place

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Thane

I read all of your responses thus far and find all of your perspectives to be interesting. My family has lived in America for many generations, and proudly so. I was taught from a young age to be tolerant of other people, their backgrounds, their religions, their lifestyles, etc. So it isn't difficult for me to be "politically correct".

Also, I personally do not practice any religion, and I feel that sometimes the Church gets in the way of access to information. For example, in the last presidential race, churches were openly denouncing John Kerry and telling their patrons that the right way to vote was for Bush. This was based on the idea that a pro-choice candidate would be going against God. What about a candidate that killed 100,000 innocent civilians in an unnecessary war? A lot of you mention that this country was built on the principle of being free to practice your religion, but at the same time, the country was just as much built on Seperation of Church and State. For a self-governing democracy to function, the people need to be informed, and sometimes the Church's idealogy shuts information out. That is dangerous.

If somone told you to jump off a bridge would you??
Just because a church tells you to do somthing doesnt mean you cant think for yourself and do whatever you want

I think someone said that during the time of the great Inquisition. (lol)

Even today (if they could get away with it) many religious groups would help you off that bridge if you were of a mind to differ with them.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I think you're missing the point. The Church and its subordinates are out there on prime time news saying things like stem cells are false hope and talking about absolute good vs. absolute evil. This, of course, defies reality. And the evangelical right is, of course, G. W. Bush's most important interest group. The Church's influence is beyond just telling people what to do. It blindfolds them first. That's why its so dangerous.

Its not just churches trying to influence there members....
Both candidates spent the whole time trying to influence us that the other one was no good....people need to think for themselves more...just cause a religious groups says to vote for a specific person you still need to make your own decision....
I would have to agree with rearfang on the pushing off the bridge idea....there are some crazy religous groups out there

I agree it's not just the Church. I was just listening to NPR on the way home from a meeting, and there was discussion about the pharmaceutical industry and the FDA. According to a doctor on the show, pharmaceutical companies in some cases are actually spending more on advertising than they are on research & development. They also set aside money in their budgets specifically for lobbying the FDA. And I read elsewhere that there are more pharmaceutical lobbyists in Washington than there are Congresspeople. Now don't get me wrong. We need drugs, so long as the benefits outway the risks. But what's happening now is the benefit-risk evaluation is being distorted by powerful influences. A direct result of this is Vioxx (sp?), which turns out to cause a 5X increase in heart attacks, and SSRIs, which cause teen suicide. So there's another example of people getting in the way of information to achieve their goal: lining their pockets.

The Church is the same way. Many Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever, teachings are good. They teach you how to live a principled life, have family values, etc. You can't argue with that. But in the current situation, where powerful political entities (i.e., the Bush Administration) are divisively using the Church to hold onto power, the result is an uninformed public. An uninformed public cannot make informed decisions about the correct course going forward, just as an uninformed patient cannot make an informed decision about what drugs they want to put in their body.

We need regulatory laws to enforce the seperation of church and state, otherwise we're running the risk of allowing ourselves to slide toward a country run by radicals. That is, even more radical than our current leaders.

(tethered)I agree it's not just the Church. I was just listening to NPR on the way home from a meeting, and there was discussion about the pharmaceutical industry and the FDA. According to a doctor on the show, pharmaceutical companies in some cases are actually spending more on advertising than they are on research & development. They also set aside money in their budgets specifically for lobbying the FDA. And I read elsewhere that there are more pharmaceutical lobbyists in Washington than there are Congresspeople. Now don't get me wrong. We need drugs, so long as the benefits outway the risks. But what's happening now is the benefit-risk evaluation is being distorted by powerful influences. A direct result of this is Vioxx (sp?), which turns out to cause a 5X increase in heart attacks, and SSRIs, which cause teen suicide. So there's another example of people getting in the way of information to achieve their goal: lining their pockets.

(me)Yes, and why does it work for them ? Because we as consumers are getting to dang lazy to become educated. They're getting rich off of your (and my) laziness.

(tethered)The Church is the same way. Many Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever, teachings are good. They teach you how to live a principled life, have family values, etc. You can't argue with that. But in the current situation, where powerful political entities (i.e., the Bush Administration) are divisively using the Church to hold onto power, the result is an uninformed public. An uninformed public cannot make informed decisions about the correct course going forward, just as an uninformed patient cannot make an informed decision about what drugs they want to put in their body.

(me)I've said it before, I'll say it again. If shrub had had nearly ANYONE else running against him besides Kerry and his rich, batty, loudmouthed wife thing, he'd would have lost, NO problem. Kerry, with his tactics of hiding his very poor senate record, and using his dubious war hero status as a failed campaign jumpstart didn't have a chance. Democratic party has ultra rich guys like George Soros supporting them, and most of the media supporting them too.

(tethered)We need regulatory laws to enforce the seperation of church and state, otherwise we're running the risk of allowing ourselves to slide toward a country run by radicals. That is, even more radical than our current leaders.

(me)As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan... We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented ! It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture. If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. And the preceding is coming from me, an agnostic ! If we (you, I and EVERYBODY) don't stand for SOMETHING, we'll fall for ANYTHING. you speak of radicals ? If we can't take a position on any issue, how will we fight ANY radicalism (like what the now "radical" ACLU has become ) ?? Change CAN be good. Changed backed by common sense, history, data and education. You say we need even MORE laws ? Good lord, aren't there too many laws already ? More laws to make lawers rich instead of pharmaceuticals ? Or more laws to make lawers rich WITH the pharmaceuticals ?
Thanes Place

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Thane

Here's what radicals do using polical correctness:

In Australia's third-largest city, the Brisbane city council has given the go-ahead for a homosexual group called the "Caroling Queens" to sing Christmas songs at a shopping mall.

"The glamorous Caroling Queens offer ... camped-up performances of favorite Christmas carols," the organizers said in a press release that promises "choreographed routines, feel-good tunes and a whole lot of sequins."

Jim Wallace, a former Australian special forces commander who now heads the Australian Christian Lobby, has urged Christians to speak out and politely remind people "that Christmas is about Christ."

"Unfortunately, we are increasingly seeing the meaning of Christmas drowned out by political correctness," Wallace said.
Full story

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Thane

You'll have to copy and paste it into the address bar. Don't know why it won't work above.

http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=ForeignBureausarchive200412FOR20041203b.html
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Thane

Apparently the clowns running that site are too drunk to manage it coherently/cohesively.
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Thane

http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=ForeignBureausarchive200412FOR20041203b.html
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Thane

Posting the link text is causing slashes to be removed from where they need to be. I give up. Hope ya laughed at least
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Thane

I didn't follow the link, but I think I got a good enough gist from your summary. I don't see how gay men and women singing Christmas carols takes the Christ of out Christmas. I don't think there's any references about gay men or women in the Bible. Just shows you how distorted some of the more radical parts of the Church have gotten.

"more radical parts of the church"-so every church now is radical?

Also yes it does take the "christ out of christmas". Homosexuals singing christmas carols is mockery IMO.

In christmas we celebrate the birth of our saviour. Our father made man and woman to create more children....homosexuals can't have children.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
0.0.1 ball pythons (FELIX!!!!!)
2.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, Bear, and Tony)

So what you are saying lilroach is that men and women who do not breed have no right to exist?

In leu of your post about abortion I should point out you make my arguement-namely the church advocating large birth rates.

News flash: even gays have the right to exist and express themselves. Some Christian you are when you cannot practice the tolerance your own religion teaches.

Also tethered said some were radical not all. However, your statements make me beleive you belong to a more fundimentalist church. The repressive philosophy is obvious.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

"So what you are saying lilroach is that men and women who do not breed have no right to exist?" No, i am saying that the purpose of there being a man and a woman is to have children.

"In leu of your post about abortion I should point out you make my arguement-namely the church advocating large birth rates." No, the church doesn't advocate large birth rates. It advocates large marriage (w/o divorce) marriage rates. The church believes you should not have sex until married. If you do not want to get pregnant, dont have sex.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
0.0.1 ball pythons (FELIX!!!!!)
2.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, Bear, and Tony)

Unbelievable...

You just confirmed what I said. By your logic My lady and I should never have sex because we are not doing it to make children.

Some day you will be an adult and then you will understand how the real world works. Here is a preview.

Sex is good. It is one of the few things that you get for free in this world. There is a responsibility when it comes to pregnancy and disease but that is just (or should be) common sense.

My advice is....Buy a condom..go out and get laid. It will improve your insight.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I would like to know WHY you think that gay men or women singing Christmas carols takes the Christ out of Christmas. I also challenge you to cite the Bible in your answer.

Why....

because gay men and women are not celebrating in the church's beliefs. It seems almost like a mockery of peoples beliefs to see/hear a homosexual singing christmas carols as homosexuality is against their churches beliefs.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
0.0.1 ball pythons (FELIX!!!!!)
2.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, Bear, and Tony)

I wasn't aware that Christmas belonged to the modern Church. I thought it was a day of celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.

Is there no limit to this? Your statements smack of Bigotry.

Next I suppose only white folk and married couples are acceptable?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Was that directed at me? I was just making the point that homosexual men and women have the same right to celebrate Jesus Christ's birthday as heterosexual men and women. This paranoia that the modern Church is propagating has no basis in reality... I thought we were on the same page with that.

np
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Thane, I'm with you on some of your points but not all of them.

I agree that Kerry, although he ran on an excellent platform, did not sell his ideas very well. To say that the media is mostly supportive of Kerry, however, I think is incorrect. Fox News has the highest ratings of all prime time news channels, and their entire line up is Conservative. Sean Hannity, who clearly overshadows Alan Colmes, Bill O'Reilley, and Brit Hume to name a few. Newspapers, while they DO set the precedent for many stories, do not have the impact of television news.

You also reiterated your earlier point: "As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom." In the past, we've had struggles, and we've fought, and what we have today is the product of all of those struggles. But don't forget that right now, as we speak, there's an ongoing struggle of acceptance. Women are fighting for their God-given right to choose. Gay men and women are fighting for their right to visit their dying partners in the hospital. Atheists are fighting for the right to be free of religious persecution.

There IS room for everyone here. Practice religion openly, but do not force it upon someone else. Do not have an abortion if you are against it, but do not force your will upon someone else. Have your feelings about gay relationships, but do not take away a gay persons right to be with their partner as they breathe their last breath.

These are the ongoing struggles. The struggles that are actively forming what America will be like tomorrow.

So, with that said, I'm interested to hear your reply. I am thoroughly enjoying this friendly debate. After all, we are all orbiting around the sun together.

- tethered

Bush draws upon a group of people who call themselves Americans but have a very narrow view of what being an American is. They scream that this country was founded on God's word and forget that even the god they proclaim as right-taught tollerance.

Being free is not fitting into a proclaimed Right way of thinking (namely however the Christain Right Wing dictates). Freedom is finding your own answers and being free to express them and to teach them to your children so that they might compare them to the rest of the world and make up their own minds.

I find offensive the deragatory remarks made here about a gay singing group. Sorry but they have the right to exist without persecution because some group labels them "Sinners".

I think a big part of the problem is that too many people are busy looking and complaining about others...and missing the trouble under their own roof where their attention belongs. This goes for our government too. While we worry about people halfway around the world we allow our own problems to go unchecked and our government at home too unsupervised.

When we sacrifice Freedom for security and comfort, or are too lazy to either learn the truth about what's going on or to stand up for our beliefs we get the government we deserve.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

(rearfang)Bush draws upon a group of people who call themselves Americans but have a very narrow view of what being an American is. They scream that this country was founded on God's word and forget that even the god they proclaim as right-taught tollerance.

(Me)Your right. We just need to watch what we accept in the name of tolerance.

(rearfang)Being free is not fitting into a proclaimed Right way of thinking (namely however the Christain Right Wing dictates). Freedom is finding your own answers and being free to express them and to teach them to your children so that they might compare them to the rest of the world and make up their own minds.

(Me)We're free still. This is what allows this kind of public discussion to freely occur.

(rearfang)I find offensive the deragatory remarks made here about a gay singing group. Sorry but they have the right to exist without persecution because some group labels them "Sinners".

(Me)I don't pay attention to what some group calls them. I just pay attention to and consider what the consequences MAY be for our society, if we "normalize" and widely accept this lifestyle into mainstream culture where children will be exposed to it.

(rearfang)I think a big part of the problem is that too many people are busy looking and complaining about others...and missing the trouble under their own roof where their attention belongs. This goes for our government too. While we worry about people halfway around the world we allow our own problems to go unchecked and our government at home too unsupervised.

(Me)Agreed totally.

(rearfang)When we sacrifice Freedom for security and comfort, or are too lazy to either learn the truth about what's going on or to stand up for our beliefs we get the government we deserve.

(Me)I agree to a point. However, after seeing how they're willing to die to kill us (9-11), isn't it worth losing a LITTLE bit of freedom to avoid another 9-11 or mushroom cloud on our soil ? We still are free enough to discuss it, own firearms and be openly homosexual (Not under Islamic ruled countries) and many other freedoms we have. I think you're bringing up the nasty nature of bureuacracies. Any bureuacracy gets arrogant and nasty. I work in one. Don't get me started

Thanes Place

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Thane

"I agree to a point. However, after seeing how they're willing to die to kill us (9-11), isn't it worth losing a LITTLE bit of freedom to avoid another 9-11 or mushroom cloud on our soil ?"

I hope you don't think that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. I think its pretty well established that they didn't. One thing that this war has done, though, is create a great recruitment tool for the real terrorists: al Queda.

(tethered)I hope you don't think that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. I think its pretty well established that they didn't. One thing that this war has done, though, is create a great recruitment tool for the real terrorists: al Queda.

(Me)Iraqs ties to 9-11 are, or were tenuous at best. Radical Islam was IN Iraq though. Not that that justifies the war. The mayhem mass murders and torture going on in Iraq by saddam and his sweet kids... I don't know. He wasn't cooperative and open to exposing his goings on as far as weapons though. This war WILL be a great recruitment tool for our freindly al-qaida. I think they would have hit us again, and WILL hit us again no matter WHAT we do. Radical Islam has had problems for a VERY long time. They cause problems wherever they exist in the world. What's the solution ? I don't know.
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Thane

"Iraqs ties to 9-11 are, or were tenuous at best. Radical Islam was IN Iraq though. Not that that justifies the war. The mayhem mass murders and torture going on in Iraq by saddam and his sweet kids... I don't know. He wasn't cooperative and open to exposing his goings on as far as weapons though. This war WILL be a great recruitment tool for our freindly al-qaida. I think they would have hit us again, and WILL hit us again no matter WHAT we do. Radical Islam has had problems for a VERY long time. They cause problems wherever they exist in the world. What's the solution ? I don't know."

The solution is to show some respect for the mainstream Muslim population. Here's an idea: Instead of spending $200 billion a year killing innocent Iraqis, let's spend that on research and development on renewable energy sources. We won't be dependant on their oil and will not have to interfere in their business. With the respect of mainstream Muslims, the radicals will have no platform.

Keep in mind that the reason al Queda is so adimately opposed to America is NOT, as the Bush Administration would like you to believe, that they hate our values. It is that they hate our policies. Osama bin Laden wrote a declaration of Jihad in 1997 I believe, that explained why they must fight us. We're colonising their homes. We're stealing their oil. And we're offering preferential treatment to Israel.

Now, I don't condone what they do. They're cold blooded murderers. How do we fix the problem? Pull the platform out from under them.

If i remember correctly the muslim faith clearly states that all non-believers should be killed...I could be wrong here but i think that is there belief..anyone know more on that

Absolutely not. Non-believers are labeled as infidels, which simply means that they do not have the same beliefs and they should not be associated with. The radical fundamentalist Muslims have contorted this and used it to achieve their own ends (i.e., al Qaeda).

well i wasnt sure....thanks

While it is not specifically said in the Q'uaran Moslems are taught that a sure way to go to paradise is to die killing the enemies of Islam.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

(tethered)I agree that Kerry, although he ran on an excellent platform, did not sell his ideas very well. To say that the media is mostly supportive of Kerry, however, I think is incorrect. Fox News has the highest ratings of all prime time news channels, and their entire line up is Conservative. Sean Hannity, who clearly overshadows Alan Colmes, Bill O'Reilley, and Brit Hume to name a few. Newspapers, while they DO set the precedent for many stories, do not have the impact of television news.

(Me)I've heard that about fox news. I don't think I even GET fox news though. I've never seen it. I think mainstream is the alphabet channels.

(tethered)You also reiterated your earlier point: "As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom." In the past, we've had struggles, and we've fought, and what we have today is the product of all of those struggles. But don't forget that right now, as we speak, there's an ongoing struggle of acceptance. Women are fighting for their God-given right to choose. Gay men and women are fighting for their right to visit their dying partners in the hospital. Atheists are fighting for the right to be free of religious persecution.

(Me)What is it that is a womens god given right to choose ? Who to "do it" with Or to abort an innocent life ? I really don't even want to debate this one. I think abortions are about 99 % unnecessary. They're needed at times, but should they be used as birth control ? Keeping our clothes on does THAT very efficiently.

(tethered)There IS room for everyone here. Practice religion openly, but do not force it upon someone else. Do not have an abortion if you are against it, but do not force your will upon someone else. Have your feelings about gay relationships, but do not take away a gay persons right to be with their partner as they breathe their last breath.

(Me)I agree that they should have a right to be with their partner at times like that. I just think we need to be careful how much we "normalize" this lifestyle in our culture.

(tethered)These are the ongoing struggles. The struggles that are actively forming what America will be like tomorrow.

(Me)Agreed.

(tethered)So, with that said, I'm interested to hear your reply. I am thoroughly enjoying this friendly debate. After all, we are all orbiting around the sun together.

(Me)I'm not so sure I'm orbiting It's pizza night (Friday night used to be beer night, now, I got a kid and wife, so pizza .... oh gad, I'll probably have to clean indigos cage too. I DID just feed him a couple days ago, messy bugger).

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Thane

I'm about to make a comparison that should not be taken literally. Abortion is like guns. They will happen whether they're legal or not.

The difference between making it legal and making it illegal is the difference between humane and inhumane. No one is advocating it. No one wants it. But it will happen. So do we want them to be happening behind a dumpster in an alley? Or do we want it to happen in the sterility of a clinic?

Also, little known fact is that the decline of abortion rates that we saw under Clinton has slowed under Bush. Clinton inherited rising rates. Bush inherited declining rates. Just a little something to think about.

I know there are many strong opinions about this topic. I respect everyones views on this, because it is often very deeply rooted. I'm just looking at it from a realist point of view, thinking out loud about the most pragmatic way of dealing with the problem. I'm in no position to instigate change, though, so no worries.

(tethered)I'm about to make a comparison that should not be taken literally. Abortion is like guns. They will happen whether they're legal or not.

(me)Agreed.

(tethered)The difference between making it legal and making it illegal is the difference between humane and inhumane. No one is advocating it. No one wants it. But it will happen. So do we want them to be happening behind a dumpster in an alley? Or do we want it to happen in the sterility of a clinic?

(me)Agreed. Lets better educate people how to avoid unwanted pregnacy to lessen the need for it though. I think the abortion debate sidetracks what needs to be done. It's a little sad in my opinion, that people still need education about such a simple matter.

(tethered)Also, little known fact is that the decline of abortion rates that we saw under Clinton has slowed under Bush. Clinton inherited rising rates. Bush inherited declining rates. Just a little something to think about.

(me)This may be true. I would just disagree that the number of abortions has ANYTHING to do with who sits in the whitehouse.

(tethered)I know there are many strong opinions about this topic. I respect everyones views on this, because it is often very deeply rooted. I'm just looking at it from a realist point of view, thinking out loud about the most pragmatic way of dealing with the problem. I'm in no position to instigate change, though, so no worries.

(me)Me neither. Only change I'd instigate would be helping people not ready for children and teenage girls to learn how keeping your clothes on will prevent unwanted pregnancies Not likely gonna happen though LOL.
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Thane

"Lets better educate people how to avoid unwanted pregnacy to lessen the need for it though. I think the abortion debate sidetracks what needs to be done. It's a little sad in my opinion, that people still need education about such a simple matter."

Yeah, definitely. We need to teach teenagers about all of the options that are available: abstinence, contraceptives, etc.

"This may be true. I would just disagree that the number of abortions has ANYTHING to do with who sits in the whitehouse."

Of course it does. Bush appoints people to oversee federal agencies. Bush oversees the appropriation of funds for education, which have been in decline. Bush's ill concieved tax cuts have done nothing more than prolong recession and have led to the first net job loss since Hoover. Oh, and not to mention the fact that he launched us into war. Remember what happened during Viet Nam? The "baby boomers". Jeez, if Social Security manages to make it through the first baby boom, especially with Bush's inaction on Social Security reform, it's DEFINITELY not going to make it through a second one.

/me has stroke.

Of course it does. Bush appoints people to oversee federal agencies. Bush oversees the appropriation of funds for education, which have been in decline. Bush's ill concieved tax cuts have done nothing more than prolong recession and have led to the first net job loss since Hoover. Oh, and not to mention the fact that he launched us into war. Remember what happened during Viet Nam? The "baby boomers". Jeez, if Social Security manages to make it through the first baby boom, especially with Bush's inaction on Social Security reform, it's DEFINITELY not going to make it through a second one.

I think we ALL need to not count on social security. Counting on a bureaucracy is seriously a bad idea. We'd all better learn how to stop letting the IRS and the "guvmint" take advantage of us. I don't approve of about a third of what my taxes are spent on. Can I do anything ? Learn how to invest, save and stash assets from the theiving IRS. I really hope we get some decent candidates in four years. I doubt it though. Most people see what liars and theives politicians are, they don't want to become one.
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Thane

"I think we ALL need to not count on social security. Counting on a bureaucracy is seriously a bad idea. We'd all better learn how to stop letting the IRS and the "guvmint" take advantage of us. I don't approve of about a third of what my taxes are spent on. Can I do anything ? Learn how to invest, save and stash assets from the theiving IRS. I really hope we get some decent candidates in four years. I doubt it though. Most people see what liars and theives politicians are, they don't want to become one."

The thing is, though, the government told us that Social Security would be there. I wouldn't have a problem at all if they said starting today, anyone born from now forward, will not pay into and will not have access to Social Security.

I, for one, want to see Barack Obama make a run in the future. That guy just downright makes sense. I wouldn't even mind Arnold running. He's doing some good things in California. Or Colon Powell. Oh wait, Karl Rove pretty successfully ruined his ability to run by putting him out there to make false claims about Iraq. Hm...

Some observations. It is no secret that the lower the economic/eductional level, the higher the level of unwanted pregnacies and the larger the birth rate. Why?

I don't feel it is just lack of education. These people also live without much opportunity and sex is (of course) the cheapest form of entertainment/ego reenforcement. Put the two situations together, add the Church's advocacy for large fmilies and you have the crux of the problem.

Abortion is a bad solution to only part of the problem.

The government's efforts to ruin our economy and thus create a poorer(more easily managed) population has much to do with our problems. Opening the US to (practically unlimited) illegal immigration (especially from countries where large birth rates are encouraged)has helped to dramaticaly change the dynamics that this country was running on.

It really is a simple concept: keep the population poor and uneducated (and the rest distracted by petty issues) and the ruling class can do as they wish...

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

...is that the evangelical right hasn't realized it was sold out yet.

Because people are sick of listening to Liberal CNN, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, etc. All the liberal stations have to compete with one another...fox doesnt. Add up the combined viewers of every liberal station (everyone but fox...or did it change?) and compare it to fox...i think it would be more.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
0.0.1 ball pythons (FELIX!!!!!)
2.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, Bear, and Tony)

FOX is number one because they don't do news, they do entertainment. People aren't sick of hearing liberals, they are just more amused by the yelling and screaming.

s
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
0.0.1 ball pythons (FELIX!!!!!)
2.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, Bear, and Tony)

when a woman has an abortion she is using the right to choose what? murder an innocent life?
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
0.0.1 ball pythons (FELIX!!!!!)
2.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, Bear, and Tony)

I suppose when a woman gives birth to an unwanted baby and leaves it in a dumpster to die that is more humane?

Grow up. Thousands of children die every day in this world from neglect and starvation because their churches and personal beliefs will not allow proper birth control. As I said above you are not going to deny the poor having sex...Its all they have. The only recourse is abortion as there are too many to adopt and no one is willing to discuss birth limits or sterilization.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

"I suppose when a woman gives birth to an unwanted baby and leaves it in a dumpster to die that is more humane?" The only reason a woman would give birth to an unwanted baby is from rape. There are more abortions from non rape than from rape, so how is a baby unwanted if they decide to have sex?

"Grow up. Thousands of children die every day in this world from neglect and starvation because their churches and personal beliefs will not allow proper birth control. As I said above you are not going to deny the poor having sex...Its all they have. The only recourse is abortion as there are too many to adopt and no one is willing to discuss birth limits or sterilization"
"will not allow proper birth control" proper birth control. The best method of birth control is to not have sex at all, from what i've heard its 100% effective.

Also jw, but im serious
they have the right to choose what?
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
0.0.1 ball pythons (FELIX!!!!!)
2.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, Bear, and Tony)

The only reason for unwanted babies is Rape? Who teaches you this crap?

As stated sex only for procreation is a narrow minded approach that has been fostered by organised religion so to control their parishoners.

It's Pavlovian: If people are only allowed to do things that make them feel good like listening the music they choose, or dancing or having sex when the church says; then the faithful will follow the dictates of their priests or ministers more faithfully. It is a control game religions have used for millania.

Again...Get out into the world and see it before you fall completely under then mind control that allready is affecting your logic.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

"The only reason a woman would give birth to an unwanted baby is from rape. There are more abortions from non rape than from rape, so how is a baby unwanted if they decide to have sex?"

Believe it or not, there are many people who live in this country that are less fortunate than we are. Many of these people were born into families who have given up on themselves. Many are not provided an education. Some of the poorer cities in this country have high school drop out rates of over 50%. For example, Camden, NJ, which is about 20 miles from me, and which was rated the poorest and most dangerous city in the country recently.

There's a deeper underlying issue here, and by simplifying as you do, you cannot even begin to understand the problem.

"The best method of birth control is to not have sex at all, from what i've heard its 100% effective."

In a vacuum, it would be 100% effective. But the fact is, as I mentioned above, many people are never given the opportunity to learn about the repercussions of unprotected sex. Whether it is legal or not, so long as this societal problem exists, abortions will happen.

I would also like to point out that it is simply UNTRUE that everyone in this country has an equal opportunity. Minimum wage is at its lowest point relative to inflation than its been for over 30 years. If you work full-time at minimum wage, you are technically, by the Supreme Courts definition, living in poverty. This means that they cannot provide the necessities (food, water, shelter, and clothing) for their family.

It's a frustrating situation.

I'm ending my participation in this discussion here. It was interesting to read all of your replies.

- tethered

How can you not now that sex leads to babies? By the time you are old enough to be considering to have sex you should know that it leads to babies. I knew that when i was 9 years old.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
0.0.1 ball pythons (FELIX!!!!!)
2.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, Bear, and Tony)

It's apparent that your simple mind is incapable of comprehending anything outside of your own little bubble.

I repeat lilroach...Someday you will be in the real world. Until then please stop making a fool out of yourself by parroting such pablum as you are trying to foster here.

NEWS FLASH!!!!! Sex is not just for Baby making!

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

C'mon you guys. Remember, communication via text on a forum can challenge the interpreter AND the writer. We'd likely all agree for the most part in person. I absolutely despise the holidays for the reasons shown in the thread. And, I'm not a homophobe, but with gay this, gay that gay this, gay that gays here gays there gays in the news gays in the military. Good lord, I'll bet the gays are getting sick of hearing gay gay gay gay gay gay gay gay gay gay gay gay. on and on... How 'bout them mariners (I can't stand sports either )
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Thane

Hey Thane! You can spell GAY! (lol)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Yep, I can spell gay. LOL. Heck, I'm starting to think something must be wrong with me since I'm NOT gay (yet, I'm working on it). Don't you know EVERYONE is really gay, they just hide it. Being gay is a new, enlightened step forward for humanity. Our bright new hopeful optimistic gay future is here. I'm gay, you're gay... were all ga-a-a-a-a-a-yyyy. Yayyaay-y-y-y-y-y-y-y- gayyyyyy. LOL.
Thanes Place

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Thane

(lol) Thane-you have been watching too many Fred Astaire movies....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Close Fred, but I suspect something more sinister. It has often been said that the worst homophobes are repressed (perhaps even married) homosexuals. Quite possibly there exists an unnatural interest on Thane's part in learning to execute the Ginger Rogers portion of the dance routine. But don't worry - there is a cure! Thane, dust off your tiara and get fitted for sequined shoes. While you're at, belt off a few Christmas carols and get a real life.

This has been a public service announcement from The Friends of Dorothy.
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Who is like Set...

1.1 Vietnamese Blue Beauties
2.2 Taiwan Beauties
2.3 Cave Beauties
0.1 Bull Snake
1.0.0 Argentine Blk & Wht Tegu
2.5 Box Turtles

Guys/Gals,

CHRISTMAS: Is a holiday that celebrates the BIRTH of CHRIST..hence CHRISTmas. We have had CHRISTMAS traditions in this country for YEARS and no one ever QUESTIONED them. I agree...things have changed so that now CHRISTMAS season is "Holiday Season" or "Winter Break"

You gotta be kidding

I can understand being sensitive to the needs of people.of their diffrences, but EVERYTHING is NOT the same.. Buddihsts are NOT Christians..Black is NOT Pink, and the last I heard, the Browns are not the Denver Broncos.

Everything ISNT the same, and its the diffrence that makes it unique, and special.

Some will point to these diffrences as barriers to "Coming together as one" and I say just the opposite:

Christmas is not Kwanza, Kwanza is not Hannukah, Hannukah is not Rahmadon(Sorry for spelling mistakes folks)

But it is ok.

What ISNT ok is to destroy traditions that have been in this country since its crappy inception, traditions that dont necessarily HARM others(Unlike the Millions of ones that do..like lynching, racism,sexism, and we could go on and one and on) )

Poltically correct?

Not in this day and age...when EVERYTHING is relative and NOTHING can be what it is without a disclaimer..........

I beleive that all people should be able to celebrate the holidays they hold dear openly, and to call them what they are..not just HOMOGONIZE them into so viqueous MUCK that demeans ALL Religions, Faiths, Beleifs, Non Beleifs,

Enough said.

So..Merry Christmas..Happy hannukah, Happy Kwanza, Merry Ramadan, Feliz Navidad..and a Happy Winter Solistice

(If i left any out forgive me, feel free to add them)

But dont call them Winter holidays

Fred Albury

Guys/Gals,

CHRISTMAS: Is a holiday that celebrates the BIRTH of CHRIST..hence CHRISTmas. We have had CHRISTMAS traditions in this country for YEARS and no one ever QUESTIONED them. I agree...things have changed so that now CHRISTMAS season is "Holiday Season" or "Winter Break"

You gotta be kidding

I can understand being sensitive to the needs of people.of their diffrences, but EVERYTHING is NOT the same.. Buddihsts are NOT Christians..Black is NOT Pink, and the last I heard, the Browns are not the Denver Broncos.

Everything ISNT the same, and its the diffrence that makes it unique, and special.

Some will point to these diffrences as barriers to "Coming together as one" and I say just the opposite:

Christmas is not Kwanza, Kwanza is not Hannukah, Hannukah is not Rahmadon( Really sorry for spelling mistakes folks)

But it is ok.

What ISNT ok is to destroy traditions that have been in this country since its crappy inception, traditions that dont necessarily HARM others(Unlike the Millions of ones that do..like lynching, racism,sexism, and we could go on and one and on) )

Poltically correct?

Not in this day and age...when EVERYTHING is relative and NOTHING can be what it is without a disclaimer..........

I beleive that all people should be able to celebrate the holidays they hold dear openly, and to call them what they are..not just HOMOGONIZE them into so viqueous MUCK that demeans ALL Religions, Faiths, Beleifs, Non Beleifs,

Enough said.

So..Merry Christmas..Happy Hannukah, Happy Kwanza, Merry Ramadan, Feliz Navidad..and a Happy Winter Solistice

(If i left any out forgive me, feel free to add them)

But dont call them Winter holidays

Fred Albury

Our bright new hopeful optimistic gay future is here. I'm gay, you're gay... were all ga-a-a-a-a-a-yyyy. Yayyaay-y-y-y-y-y-y-y- gayyyyyy. LOL.

Me-e-e-rry rutmas boys and girls (forgot that one). Now come out of the closet and embrace your homosexuality.

I'm so gay today Aren't you too

Cracking up

But on a serious note: I see I'm not the only one that is aware of how our society is so obviously degenerating ? Sure, making light of it can be funny, but at least some of us can SEE it. Political correctness is hushing thoughts and beleifs and traditions. We wouldn't want to ever offend anyone, we better just go live in caves or on Mars or the moon ?
Thanes Place

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Thane