Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey folks,

I have been talking to my friend Jeff, and I wanted to relate a story, and get some feedback.

Jeff is known to come up with some interesting ways to pronounce certain words from time to time, and I have gotten into the bad habit of correcting him, on occasion. For a while lately, whenever he has mentioned "couperi" (which he pronounces "cooper-eye" I have been correcting him and instructing him to say "coo-pear-eye" as this is how it would seem to me to be pronounced in anglicized latin.

The other day I was reading some old copies from a book on reptile classification which were sent to me by David Neske several years ago. I saw that the holotype of the Eastern Indigo was collected by a man with the name J.H. Couper, from whence the species name was derived. No date was given, but the holotype is or was located at the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia, and it must have been collected in the early 1800's.

Now, species names are supposed to be pronounced in the same manner as the words or names that they are derived from. This fellow, J.H. Couper, clearly was in the United States when he collected the holotype animal, and my suspicion is that his name is of French origin. I believe that the word "couper" means "to cut" in French, and perhaps his family was known at some time as having the profession of logging trees (although if truly French, maybe they were cutting fabric for bowties).

Anyways, I imagine this fellow would have been referred to as "cooper" in the U.S. although it is possible he could have been known as "coo-pear" or even by the French pronunciation "coo-pay." It would seem to me that we should pronounce "couperi" based on the way this man pronounced his last name, in the United States, I would suggest. I am not so sure that anyone knows exactly how he did indeed pronounce his name, as little seems to be known about him (such as his full name, or when he collected the holotype animal, for example).

If he referred to himself as "coo-pay," we all may be sounding pretty goofy from now on, as "coo-pay-eye" to me, sounds pretty silly. I suppose I could get used to it.

Does anyone know how the name "Couper" was pronounced in the early 1800's in the U.S.? If my suspicion is correct, then Jeff was probably right all along. The "Cooper" families in the U.S. would have arisen from the French "Couper" families, and therefore "cooper-eye" would be the correct pronunciation.

I would like to know if anyone thinks that they have the definitive answer to this perplexing question. Since I have been known to show Easterns at my children's school, I would like to be saying the species name correctly.

Oh, yeah, Jeff, you may get the right to correct my pronunciation from now on (that is scary).

Robert Bruce

The species was originally described in 1842 by John Holbrook. It was first given the name Coluber couperi, in honor of J. Hamilton Couper. Couper was a landowner in St. Simons Island, Georgia, who provided information to Holbrook on where to find and collect specimens.

The commonly accepted pronunciation is "COO-per-eye".

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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

And I think the "correct" pronunciation of the scintific names is no more complex than the way that is generally accepted and used throughout the herpetological community.

I've worked with many field herpetologist and hobbiests alike...and "COO per i" seems to be the accepted pronunciation.

I named my labrador "Cooper" in honor of my favorite snakes, but he doesn't know that. He likes the name.

As I understand it (told to me by a University professor who is a linguist), if a species name is derived from the name of a person, it should be pronounced in the way that the person's name is pronounced. If the entire popular or scientific community mispronounce the name, then they are doing just that, getting it wrong.

If Couper was pronounced "cooper", then we are all saying it right (except myself until now). And I won't argue if everyone thinks that "cooper" is the correct way to say it. But let me point out that most people don't like it if their names are mispronounced. It isn't a fitting tribute to a person to name something after them and then mispronounce their name.

Another thing that makes me suspect that Couper's name may have been pronounced as "coo-PEAR" is that in 1892, it looks like Cope redesignated the species as Spilotes corais couperii and the spelling of couperii has two i's. This ending is pronounced "eee-eye." It is hard for me to reckon with the pronunciation "COO-per-eee-eye" as this is not a natural way to pronounce species names. When the "eee-eye" ending is present, the syllable before that is almost always given emphasis, and that would lead to "coo-PER-eee-eye" if his name was pronounced as "coo-PER." I have never heard that name pronounced this way. It seems almost more likely to me that at that time, Couper's name was being pronounced "coo-PEAR" as that would lead to the more natural sounding name "coo-PEAR-eee-eye," something that a scientist or biologist would use.

I will try to find out if "Couper" would have been pronounced "coo-PEAR." Some french names are pronounced this way in English, even though the native french pronunciation would be with an "ay" at the end, as "coo-PAY."

Whatever it is, if the current pronunciation is bastardized, we shouldn't continue with it just because it is commonly accepted.

Gerald, thanks for the info, where did you get it?

Robert Bruce

From my earlier post, "coo-PEAR-eee-eye" being an older scientific name, "coo-PEAR-eye" being the current.

Robert,
That particular information is on Doug's site, Indigosnakes.com.

Here's some more info about the Eastern Indigo's namesake that is not on Doug's site:

James Hamilton Couper (1794-1866) immigrated to the United States from Scotland (not from France) in 1804 with his parents. The bought land on St Simon's Island when they arrived in Georgia. He graduated from Yale University in 1814. In 1829 he built a modern sugar mill at Hopeton, GA. He introduced a number of exotic plants, including Bermuda Grass to the U.S. Sometime before 1842 he collected the holotype D.c.couperi in the vicinity of the Altamaha River in southern Georgia. In 1842 he presented the papers and the holotype to the Academy of Natural Sciences in Pholadelphis from which Holbrook began his work and described the species. The Civil War destroyed his plantation lifestyle and he died broke. All 5 of his sons were in the Confederate Army, 2 died in action. His name was pronounced "COO-per".
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>Robert,
>>That particular information is on Doug's site, Indigosnakes.com.
>>
>>Here's some more info about the Eastern Indigo's namesake that is not on Doug's site:
>>
>>James Hamilton Couper (1794-1866) immigrated to the United States from Scotland (not from France) in 1804 with his parents. The bought land on St Simon's Island when they arrived in Georgia. He graduated from Yale University in 1814. In 1829 he built a modern sugar mill at Hopeton, GA. He introduced a number of exotic plants, including Bermuda Grass to the U.S. Sometime before 1842 he collected the holotype D.c.couperi in the vicinity of the Altamaha River in southern Georgia. In 1842 he presented the papers and the holotype to the Academy of Natural Sciences in Pholadelphis from which Holbrook began his work and described the species. The Civil War destroyed his plantation lifestyle and he died broke. All 5 of his sons were in the Confederate Army, 2 died in action. His name was pronounced "COO-per".
>>-----
>>We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Spellcheck would be a welcome addition to this forum.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

This program works great for web based forums etc.
I love it!

http://iespell.com/

Eric

Thanks!
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

you're welcome, now where's my $19.95?

Eric

The check is in the mail?
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Dear Gerald,

Thanks again for the storehouse of information. Where did you get that last bundle of info? Also, how did you determine that Couper's name was pronounced "COO-per?"

Doug posts below that a cooper in England was someone who installed the copper metal rings on barrels. That could be the origin of Couper's name. But, there were many french people and french colonies in Scotland, and historically, the Scots were known to readily "interbreed" with the french. The spelling of the name Couper might suggest that it is of french origin.

Again, I have no certainty and I am just speculating. If Couper is of English origin, then I would agree that Easterns are "COO-per-eye." If it is french origin, I would guess that "coo-PEAR-eye" might be correct.

I would like to be sure that we are saying it the way it should be said. Just because everyone says a name wrong doesn't make it right. Americans are butchering Maria Sharapova's last name, which I am virtually certain should be pronounced "sha-ROP-uh-vah" not "share-uh-POE-vah." I don't know why she hasn't held a news conference to correct everyone.

Also, no one commented on how they thought Cope meant "couperii" to be pronounced. "COO-per-eee-eye" (emphasis on "COO" just doesn't sound right to me. If "COO-per" is the way to pronounce the name, then I would bet that he bent the rules a little and put the emphasis on the "PER" and said "coo-PER-eee-eye" even though that alters the pronunciation of the name. Cope's naming fits best with pronouncing the name at the time as "coo-PEAR."

Please tell me how you determined that Couper was pronounced as Cooper in 1842 in the United States OK? Thanks again.

Robert Bruce

Because the family name "Couper" is of English and Scottish origin. Do a search on Family Name origins, then look up Couper. I'm sure you can find something on it. If you go to St. Simon's Island, Couper is buried there. The local folks all pronounce the name "COO-per". There are still lots of people by that name.

Here's a link to a site that gives a bunch of Biographical data on people who's names are found in Herpetological taxonomy:

Biographies

That is a useful site for finding the meanings of the scientific names also.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I didn't know Couper in french was derived from to cut.

I believe that in English, the cooper was the guy putting copper rings on barrels. It's probably been pronounced "Coo-per" So if Couper is just a derivation from Cooper, I think it would be Coo-per-eye.

Just my vote.

Doug T

>>And I think the "correct" pronunciation of the scintific names is no more complex than the way that is generally accepted and used throughout the herpetological community.
>>
>>I've worked with many field herpetologist and hobbiests alike...and "COO per i" seems to be the accepted pronunciation.
>>
>>I named my labrador "Cooper" in honor of my favorite snakes, but he doesn't know that. He likes the name.

Even if it would be technically correct to pronounce it coo-PEAR-I, If the majority of the people in the scientific and hobbiest community alike are pronouncing it cooper-I...

Then...I say that's right.

Kind of like the fact that in France, they pronounce Croissant
as "KWAS-on", and even though that is technically correct,
Pretty much everyone in America says, "cre-SONT".

Try to order a Croissant by saying "KWAS-on" in downtown New York and see what kind of looks you get.

Dean,
I'm still trying to figure out why Brett Favre is pronouced Brett FARVE!!!! lol
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The Crawl Space

NP
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

Careful!
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

'cause brett favre is gonna just be 'dead meat' come tuesday morning! LOL!... kankakee and crumbley are already out of brumation. i put them down lightly when they started refusing in early sept. anyway, good luck monday night and i really mean that...NOT! :>]

On the suggestion of "oldherper," I searched the web for family names. If one searches a result will be factmonster.com, wherein James Hamilton Couper is listed and the pronunciation of his name is given as "COO-per."

So, everyone else but myself has been saying it right. It will be hard to rid myself of the old habit. Jeff, for every time I have corrected you on this, I must eat my words. Cooper-eye, Cooper-eye, Cooper-eye. Soon I will get it right. It sounds like an eye disease.

Robert Bruce.

No worries, Robert!

I took your ribbings with humor..

Jeff

I wouldn't feel too bad about it. The latin names are usually no problem...there are rules for pronunciation for Latin, you just pronounce them according to the rules and it's really pretty easy. The ones that are named after someone (such as couperi) are sometimes somewhat problematic...sometimes, as you pointed out earlier, it's a case of "Your guess is as good as mine."

As long as the person you are speaking to understands what you are saying, it doesn't really matter at all.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson