Reptile & Amphibian Forums

1 Dendrobates leucomelas
1 Dendrobates auratus

Could I mix these two types in a well-planted 30 gallon with lots of food? Is there any other species I could add? There are two many great looking frogs, I just don't want to house just one kind.

dragon55,
No, you should not mix auratus with leucs. They can/will hybridize. In most cases , if you have to ask , err on the side of keeping one species.

Rich

enjoy www.fryebrothersfrogs.com

As well as what Rich said, there are territorial considerations. Leucs are very bold frogs, while some auratus are shy and might be intimidated into hiding instead of eating. It's just best to begin with one specie, and if you want more, get separate tanks. I know, there are several people, especially in the Netherlands and other Europeans that apparently mix successfully in huge tanks, and some zoos do it for display purposes, but it's pretty much of a "no-no" for hobbyists who are just getting some experience with their first frogs. There are none on my list below that I would ever mix together after keeping each species separately. This includes both leucs and auratus.
-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

I agree with Patty: it can be done safely, but I would not recommend it. To mix species can cause territorial or personality clashes that are exasperated by the differences between the species that may stress one or the other frog, potentially leading to death. Being able to notice this requires some experience.

As a beginner, I would recommend two 10 gallon tanks with separate species in each. You can do a lot with a 10 gallon, and then you can have both frogs!
-----
Purveyor of Trivialities and Fine Nonsense

I think that we are missing the main point of why most in the hobby do not like to mix species. Hybrids. This is word that should make most froggers cringe.
I am sorry I was a bit short in my previuos post but there is a post very similar to this one , active, and added to only a few days ago. I realy beleive in reading and doing as much research as you can before starting a new thread. This will give you the full bennefit of previous posts. Sorry.
Hybrids. Hybrids are created when you put some species like D. auratus in a tank with D. tinctorius and they do not fight, low and behold they get along, real well in fact. Same with D. azureus and some other morphs.
You can mix species when you understand fully which species can/will hybridize with which. Which species are arborial and which are terrestrial. I would not attempt a multi-species tank unless fairly experienced. This is what I meant by "if you have to ask don't mix" statement. There are a good many Dendrobates species in the hobby. I would never attept to say with any certainty that I would be able to tell how each species interacts with all other species.
All of the tinc morphs, leucs, azureus, and auratus have the ability to hybridize and should not be given the chance.
Sorry again for the rant but this is actualy some very important stuff.

Rich

www.fryebrothersfrogs.com

On the other hand, the frogs aren't likely to hybridize when the hobbyist isn't to the point of raising the tadpoles from eggs. I don't think hybrydizing is an issue except with people into breeding and perhaps misrepresenting them. A new hobbyist isn't likely to go this route.
-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

At what point do we teach new froggers about the basics of hybridized frogs? All of the species mentioned will hybridize when left alone. Let me ask this . What exactly do you do to get your frogs to stop breeding? I have thought of this and it would be very hard. In many cases all you need to do to get these frogs to breed is take care of them as if you had no intentions other than keeping them healthy. They will breed. When frogs like tincs, azureus , auratus, leucs, get settled in they are very happy. That is why these are great frogs for newbies. Easy to breed and very hardy, just add frog, the right frog.

Rich
www.fryebrothersfrogs.com

for your opinions and advice. After putting more thought into it, I agree that if it doesn't happen in the wild, then why should it happen in my frog tank? Now the only problem of choosing one type of frog for now!

thank you

Choosing just one frog really isn't too big of an issue. Because once you get one, more will follow.

For my first frog, I would make my choice on price and what colors I like. Set up a budget of what you want to spend then stick with it. This will help eliminate some choices.

Melis
-----
Quality Captives

"I think that we are missing the main point of why most in the hobby do not like to mix species."

I agree that we should discourage the possbility of hybrids in the hobby, but I think you are missing the point of the thread--can mixing be done safely. Safety of the frogs in question was the point, not hybrids. Feel free to rant, it's your privilege.

However, I was simply addressing the question asked, not the question that I wanted asked. As you pointed out, the hybrid question had already been addressed below (and by you already in this thread).

Can auratus and leucs be mixed safely? Probably so, by an experienced hobbyist. Rich, I know you made the case that intermedius can be safely mixed with terribilis, as you and your brother have a large terrarium with both mixed. Maybe you can give some other recommendations about species that can be mixed safely (and, as you suggest, without hybridizing). That was the question asked.
-----
Purveyor of Trivialities and Fine Nonsense

Homer,
It is possible that I was not specific enough.
NO, you can not safely keep an auratus with a tinc without the possibility of hybridizing. The physical safety of the pair would most likely not be an issue.
Out of the reletively small number of hybrids out there I would say that a very low percentage are alive because of purposeful breeding. They happened accidentally. So the question has been answered by all.
Now as to the question of which species could be safely kept together, as I stated in my last post, I could not possibly name all of the species of Darts that can be safely kept together. Here is an attept at some that are kept though.

terrestrials:

D.tincs
D.leucs
D.auratus
D.galacts
P.terribilis

Arborials:

D.amazonicus
D.ventrimaculatus
D.lamasi
D.Panuana lamasi
D.Pumilio
D.histrionicus
D.imitator
D.fantasticus
D.variabilis
D.castaneoticus
D.quinquevitatus
D.Granuliferous
D.reticulatus
D.lehmanni
D.biolat
There are species not listed, this is a start though.
I am not going to speculate on the Epips, I do not know enough about them to make the broad statement that will include the above listed species.

You can keep any of the above arborials with any of the above terrestrials if you are experienced enough , have the knowledge, and keep a vigilant watch on the mixed species tank. Do not mix the arborials with arborials, and do not mix the terrestrials with terrestrials.
I will gladly explain as many options, or possible problems that may arrise , but I think that the orriginal question has been answered.
There you go, cheers Homer.

Rich
www.fryebrothersfrogs.com

I agree with both Homer & Patty.

I think the question you raised is the # 1 question we are asked at shows. Everyone sees the wide range of colors and they want to set up a frog tank with different species just like they do with fish!

First of all, I know there are people out there who do it, and some even successfully, but I do not recommend this. Here is why:

The health of your frogs!!! As Homer stated:

"To mix species can cause territorial or personality clashes that are exasperated by the differences between the species that may stress one or the other frog, potentially leading to death. Being able to notice this requires some experience."

You really can't state it any better than that.

Melis
-----
Quality Captives

Posted by: melissa68 at Wed Dec 1 11:25:35 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

"I agree with both Homer & Patty. "

"First of all, I know there are people out there who do it, and some even successfully, but I do not recommend this. Here is why:

The health of your frogs!!! As Homer stated:

"To mix species can cause territorial or personality clashes that are exasperated by the differences between the species that may stress one or the other frog, potentially leading to death. Being able to notice this requires some experience."

You really can't state it any better than that.

Melis"

Melis,
I know that you rarely agree with me (if ever) but the main reason for not mixing is HYBIDIZATION period. At least for those who care about what happen to the hobby down the road.
All species can/will fight within their own species. They fight. Males with males, females with female. There are territorial or personality clashes commonly within same species. What does this tell you? Is it a no-no to put more than one frog in a viv? NO , it is a no-no to put more than one species in a viv that you can not stop from hybidizing.
It has little or nothing to do with fighting.
AGAIN, the different species can/will get along well enough to breed.

Let us not try to put a spin on this. Yes physicaly you can keep an auratus with a tinc. Ethicaly you should not.

Rich
www.fryebrothersfrogs.com

If you reread his question, it referred to the safety of the frogs. That is the topic everyone, but you has addressed.

Hybridization is another concern and one which you brought up. I don't know of any hobbyist or layperson who condones this practice, most in fact strongly oppose it.

Melis
-----
Quality Captives

Melis,
Should I start with the zoos or the froggers that I hold in the highest respect that are mixing?
AGAIN, they will be safe together physicaly. How do you not get this?
Mel, read the opening question.
Here is my answer that is not going to change:
NO, you can not safely mix auratus with tincs without the high probability of hybridization. Yes you can mix them physicaly and get hybrid offspring.
Would you care to go into the ethics of Dart husbandry Melis?
I say we start with the basics....like not breeding SLS frogs. Something that would seem basic to most concearned froggers....most.

Rich
www.fryebrothersfrogs.com

Maybe we can all agree on one thing--anyone who is asking the question about mixing should go with one species at a time and learn about them before even thinking about mixing. After they become well aquainted and virtual experts, they will have all the resources to judge their own decisions.

I personally don't mix because I'm sometimes paying as much as $150 per frog and don't want to risk it's demise. I also enjoy them separately with their own personalities and idiosyncrasies, that after four years in the hobby, I still don't know enough about. I'm certainly not an expert yet. I don't personally have to worry about hybridizing and the ethics of this, because I don't mix myself, and don't see any advantages of doing this in the future. On the other hand, I don't do "show and tell" tanks and displays for public viewing, that are the goal of some hobbyists.

-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

But if it doesn't hurt my frogs to mix them, why not? Yeah, I see the hybrid speel, but don't really care about raising anything, and don't care about what somebody else thinks about it. So, if it is physically safe liek Rich says, and I like the different colors in the tank, why not?

I never got any eggs that I know of out of my bumble bee frogs anyway. When I bought them, I was told that different colors in the same tank might be a bad idea because of fighting and stress. But if it is not any different stress or fighting than having several bumblebees in the same tank I don't see a problem.

Todd,
As long as you are not going to try to raise froglets, and as long as the needs of the frogs are taken care of ( this includes watching for fighting, in mixed tanks or otherwise) then I see no problem with mixing species. I would however stick to my statement that arborial-terrestrail mixes work the best.
The main thing is that you know what you are doing and are able to change things if/when needed.

Rich
www.fryebrothersfrogs.com

Cool, that's the way I understood you. Thanks for the info.

Even if you are not going to raise tads, I think it is bad advice to say that different species will not stress one another in ways that different individuals of the same species will not. As was mentioned earlier, auratus tend to be more shy, and tincs more bold and somtimes abusive--this can lead to a situation where safety of the animal is compromised if you are not observant enough or do not know what to look for in a distressed frog.

I think you're asking for trouble if you're a beginner and mixing species; then there is also the issue of hybrids that Rich brought up.
-----
Purveyor of Trivialities and Fine Nonsense

Posted by: Homer1 at Fri Dec 3 22:37:38 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

"Even if you are not going to raise tads, I think it is bad advice to say that different species will not stress one another in ways that different individuals of the same species will not. As was mentioned earlier, auratus tend to be more shy, and tincs more bold and somtimes abusive--this can lead to a situation where safety of the animal is compromised if you are not observant enough or do not know what to look for in a distressed frog.

I think you're asking for trouble if you're a beginner and mixing species; then there is also the issue of hybrids that Rich brought up"

Homer,
First off, if you are refering to my previous posts you must know this:

I never said:
"different species will not stress one another in ways that different individuals of the same species will not."

I said that there can be fighting within same species as there can be with mixed species vivs.
I said nothing of stress.
Stress in a wholey different matter. Did you know that certain stress will stimulate breeding Homer? Did you know that intermedius will not breed with terribilis? Hmmm... breeding stimuli without hybridizing.
Has anyone ever moved a group of breeders ,that was not breeding so well, into a different viv, only to get mega clutches after the move, ...the stressful move? Happens all the time.

I also think that I made it very clear that you MUST know enough to be able to manage a mixed species tank, watching for fighting and any signs of trouble, ready to act. NOT for the begginer.

I just did'nt want people thinking that I was giving out "bad advice" Homer.

Rich
www.fryebrothersfrogs.com

Not all stressors elicit the same response, and assuming that mixing terribilis with intermedius will result in increased reproduction due to the interaction between the animals is a questionable theory at best. Stresses come in countless types, and the definition of stress is amorphous at best. So, it is your perogative that you keep terribilis with a species roughly the size of a large cricket . . . but don't expect me to buy the argument that the interaction is beneficial to the frogs.

Regardless, let's keep in mind that the question here is whether a relative newcomer can mix tincs/auratus/leucs without risking the health of the tanks inhabitants.

Rich, you have said: "Yes physicaly you can keep an auratus with a tinc;" and "AGAIN, they will be safe together physicaly. How do you not get this?" So, yes, you have implied that there are no health problems with mixing (only ethical implications with hybridizing).

Again, I would say that this is bad advice to a newcomer, and I would recommend against such mixing, as prolonged stress that may result from the interactions can cause physical danger to the inhabitants that a newcomer would be unable to recognize . . . potentially leading to the demise of a frog. Immunosuppression is common amongst individuals who are routinely subjected to prolonged stress, especially if undernourished by competition for food.

If you feel otherwise, then we must agree to disagree. I simply don't think beginners should try it, and would warn strongly against it for the safety of the frogs (as well as the potential problems caused to the hobby by hybridizing). As Patty and others have suggested, gain some experience with the individual species separately before trying to mix.
-----
Purveyor of Trivialities and Fine Nonsense

"If you feel otherwise, then we must agree to disagree. I simply don't think beginners should try it, and would warn strongly against it for the safety of the frogs (as well as the potential problems caused to the hobby by hybridizing). As Patty and others have suggested, gain some experience with the individual species separately before trying to mix."

I agree Homer.

Rich