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Dear "mdennis" (sorry I don't know your name),

A couple weeks ago you posted that you were going to put your female on oxytocin and try to void her of her bound eggs. I was reading the thread with interest.

I have had egg-bound females, and they always ended up laying their eggs, although with one, it took a few months of waiting, and she lost a lot of weight (since recovered fully).

Last year, I had one female that had four bound eggs. I waited and she fed normally, and seemed to defecate normally. She laid three of the four singly over time, without assistance, but one was still left three months after the initial oviposition of two good eggs. She was strong, but I was becoming impatient. My friend Jeff had once manipulated a bound egg down to the vent, wherein he punctured it and pulled out the egg shell with forceps, successfully.

I decided to try this. I got the egg to two inches from the vent, but it would not crown. I put quite a great pressure on it and must have torn the oviduct down. The female died suddenly a few days later, of a systemic bacterial infection, no doubt.

I am not sure if she would have delivered the one remaining egg, but for me, history would say likely yes. In retrospect, I wish I had left her since she was eating, was strong, and had not lost weight.

I am curious if the oxytocin worked for your female, and if you or the vet administered it, was it one time or several doses, and how it was administered.

One of my friends ("sighthunter" on this forum) has successfully manipulated out "bound" eggs completely, which were viable and later hatched, when he did this within twelve hours after the initial egg laying. He claims that the eggs are easily moved at that early time, and he believes that they die, get more stuck and are less likely to be moved as time passes. You all saw his post. There is some disagreement as to whether these eggs were really bound. This was with non-Drymarchon species.

I am still without a firm conclusion of my own as to the best way to approach the problem in Drymarchon. I haven't tried sighthunter's suggestions, which are tantalizing and intriguing. And to Chuck Elliott and Robert Seib in particular, if you read this, I would greatly appreciate hearing your feelings about this issue.

Mdennis, please let us know about the results you had, thanks,

Robert Bruce.

I realized that I hadn't remembered the events correctly.

The female of mine that died moved the last bound egg down herself to two inches from her vent, three months after the initial oviposition. I was happy that it had moved down and expected her to lay it shortly after that. It was the only remaining bound egg. She was physically fine before that when the egg was high up in her body, strong, and eating, urinating and defecating normally. Unfortunately, the egg got stuck again there, two inches up from the vent. For the next two or three weeks, she couldn't defecate the normal amount so I became worried. I gave her warm water baths but she wouldn't expel the egg.

I finally decided after three weeks of the egg stuck there to do something so I pushed hard on the egg to move it to the vent. Between the egg and the vent were three very hard "fecoliths," hardened fecal stones. She had been eating fine, but because the egg was near her vent, she couldn't defecate her feces, and the fecoliths were the residuals from her recent meals. These were expelled as I pushed the egg, but were clearly wedged in tightly and resisted coming out.

I could get the egg to begin to protrude from the vent, but it was still covered in a membrane, the lining of the oviduct. I had probably already torn the oviduct down at that point. If the oviduct was OK, I would have been able to see the egg, drain it, and pull out the shell. I couldn't get the egg out or get a surface of the egg to crown. I repeated warm water baths and a few days later, in the bath, she suddenly died. Since other snakes had laid their bound eggs in the past for me, I assumed she would too, and I didn't know that her oviduct had been torn. She clearly needed surgical intervention at that point to remove the egg, because with a torn oviduct, she wasn't going to lay it herself.

One thing I should have done when the egg got hung up near the vent and she stopped defecating normally was to give her mineral oil to cause her to defecate. As sighthunter mentioned, the fecal stones were probably preventing the egg from being laid, and conversely, the egg was preventing the fecal material from being defecated. Also, when the egg stopped at two inches above her vent, I may have wanted to stop feeding her. When the eggs are bound high up in the body of a snake, they don't impair the animal from eating, digestion and defecation, but when they are lodged near the vent, they can impair both defecation and urination, causing big problems. An egg bound near the vent has to come out soon, as my experience proves.

When an egg is crowning (protruding from the vent) but is covered in a membrane, the oviduct has been torn down. I didn't have enough experience at the time to recognize this. The snake needs to have the egg surgically removed right away when this has happened, and should go on antibiotics to prevent an infection.

If all of this can be prevented by manipulating the eggs during the 24 hours after initial oviposition, as sighthunter suggests, then stress and trauma to the snakes and owners could be avoided. But, the converse argument would be to allow the snake to lay the bound egg(s), ceasing feeding or giving mineral oil to prevent fecal material from keeping the egg from being laid. Without the fecal stones blocking the transit of the egg, she may have laid the egg, or it could have at least been manipulated to a crowned position where it could be drained and pulled out. If I had done this, she may be alive today.

Sorry for such a long post. I hope this discussion will help others in the future.

Robert Bruce.

My Easterns aren't big enough to breed yet, but I do have some similar experiences from breeding milksnakes that I'd like to share.

Last year I had 5 different milksnakes become eggbound (4 hondurans and a black milk). In my experience, the eggs that aren't layed right away always turn out to be slugs. Anyhow, I had read on the forums that it's best to get the retained eggs out as soon as possible. I think that knowing this caused me to lose a couple of my females. Here's what happened:

Female 1 layed 9 good eggs, retained 1. I assisted within 24 hrs and was able to manipulate the last egg out (eggs was already near to the vent. Conclusion - intervention helped, but she probably would have passed it anyway.

Female 2 layed 6 good eggs, retained 1. I assisted within 24 hrs, but could only get the egg to about 2" from the vent. I aspirated the egg about a day later. The female died about a day after this. I feel that if I had left her alone she'd probably have passed it eventually. Conclusion - intervention probably killed her.

Female 3 layed 3 eggs (all were the most ugly bad-looking eggs I had ever seen, but all hatched!) and she retained 1 egg. I also tried manipulating that egg within 24 hrs. I worked on her pretty hard to get it out. It felt like she had a rock inside of her. It finally came out (was about 4" from the vent when I started). Turned out to be a calcified egg. Possibly from the previous season? I found her dead the next day, so I'm sure the oviduct tore since the egg was so hard. Don't know if leaving her alone would have been best or not. Conclusion - probably a no-win scenario either way.

Female 4 layed 4 eggs, retained 2 slugs. I was able to maneuver 1 egg out, but the other got stuck about 2" from the vent. Vet gave her oxytocin. Didn't have any effect. Had the vet aspirate it this time. She never passed the shell though. In fact, it eventually moved back away from the vent. Not sure what to expect from that this year -- surely it won't be good. Conclusion - not sure if my manipulation is what caused the egg to get stuck in the first place. Probably best had she been left alone.

Female 5 (black milk). This girl was eggbound in 2003 and had surgery to remove 2 eggs (of 23 total!). This year she passed 2 good eggs, then about 10 slugs. Four eggs remained, and they were very far from the vent. Tried some manipulation. Didn't help since female passed the eggs + slugs over several days' time. Consulted with a vet who suggested removing them surgically again, as well as the oviduct this time. Now flame me if you want, but I just couldn't afford to drop another $700 this year on the same eggbound female which would never produce again, so I decided to let nature take it's course with her. I gave her mineral oil (at the suggestion of some folks that read this forum). It took about 6 weeks, but she eventually passed all four remaining eggs. Interestingly enough, as they moved down they all seemed to get stuck at the same point where her incision was from her earlier surgery (3" from vent). There must have been scar tissue in the oviduct. Conclusion - leaving her alone seemed to work ok for this female. I don't think I'll ever breed her again though.

Paul

Picture below is from Female #2 described above. Sure wish I had her back

Does anyone think increasing humidity greatly, when eggs are about to be laid, would increase egglaying chances on these hondurans.....and does keeping our snakes in cages with limited room to excersize weaken muscles that are used in egg laying?........just some thoughts........mike bodner

Many will remember my trouble a couple of years ago with this problem..I'll not go thru all of it again, just my conclusions..
My vet did a necropsy of my 1st female after she died waiting to "pass" the eggs..Calcium, oxytocin, etc did not work..He described the "eggs" as "velcro" in the oviduct on the post..
I've since then not allowed an animal to wait..All eggs must be deposited within 24 hours or I'm going after them..The sooner the better..I use the technique RB described..
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

Dear Carl,

We at long last communicate with each other. Jeff gave me your e-mail address a long time ago and I still hadn't tried yet to contact you.

So, you would be an advocate of the method described by my friend "sighthunter," even though when he posted his suggestions, nobody seemed to agree with him. Have you been able to push eggs all the way out, when manipulated early as we are talking about? Sighthunter believes that bound eggs die due to lack of oxygen, not the other way around, that dead eggs become bound. This is intriguing, because he is suggesting that if we push out the eggs within 24 hours of the initial egg laying, we may find ourselves with viable eggs in our hands. Nobody wants to lose even one viable Eastern Indigo egg.

I want to try this method, but I am still a little sheepish. I don't want to tear any more oviducts. Sighthunter claims that the eggs are easily moved, and not tightly stuck when manipulation is attempted in the early period following the first egg laying. He also claims that he has pushed out viable eggs which hatched. Every bound egg I have had, without exception, has been dead. Sighthunter argues that these eggs died because of lack of oxygen for being left too long inside the female.

If you or anyone else has had good experiences with this "no waiting" method in Drymarchon, I would like to know the details. It would tip the balance for me and infuse me with a braver soul. Nice to hear from you.

Robert Bruce.

Hey Rob! Yes I agree with sighthunter except I don't think viable eggs become stuck...at least not in my experience...The first stuck egg was always a slug and usually abnormally large, but not always..I have had viable eggs after slugs, so it would seem they don't die from lack of O2 in transit, at least for a good while..There is plenty of blod supply circulating around them...Altho, I admit I don't really know about oxygen absorbtion in vivo...
I just talked with my vet(Dr Fitzgerald on Animal Planet ER) this weekend concerning another matter and told him what I had been doing the last 2 seasons after our first big problem and loss..He agreed with me that no waiting is best and reiterated his findings on the necropsy of my female 2001 that the eggs where fibrosed into the canal and there was no way she would ever pass them..While he did not "endorse" my method, he did not object at all..Basically said he couldn't think of a better way to do it, but just "be careful" (and quick)...Thinks obstructive uropathy, etc, leading to sepsis, is the final cause of death in most.. cases..
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas