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Normally I don't put my indigos together until a few weeks later in the year. This year I tried it a month early. The pair cop'ed well enough. In fact the female was the more aggressive of the two.

What a difference a couple weeks makes. I put them together again today and the female had absolutely no interest in the male, while he, on the other hand, was desperately chasing and trying to pin her down. After an hour, I just separated them. They were both cool enough but she wasn't having anything of it.

It appears that poor male is only getting to party 1 time this year. We'll see what comes of the single mating.

Doug T

Doug,
She may have no interest because she is already gravid. Don't give up, though. I'd keep putting them together every few days until the season is definitely over. You never know. Maybe if she is gravid, and all of her ripe follicles did not get fertilized and she may cycle again with the stimulus of the male chasing her around.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I think it would be (or could be) dangerous for 2 reasons..
1) as DT knows, the could keep trying and injure the female very easily..
2) if OH's approach did actually stimulate or result in a second batch of eggs being fertilized, you'd be endangering the females health with 2 batchs, no matter how small, developing at different paces in her..We all ready know how much a single clutch takes from the females...
I put pairs together several times in a small time frame, say in 1 week...May see several copulations, but I don't think I'm getting more than 1 batch of eggs fertized...
Just my 2 sense
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

I start putting pairs together in late Oct. to early Nov.
Usually, I get copluation in early Nov...and I will let the same females breed for a period of as long 8-10 weeks...into early January. I stop pairing them only when the female is obviously gravid...and I try to make sure each female locks up at least 3-4 times. If the female does the tail whipping, cage thrashing,
"get the hell away from me I have a headache and I don't like you anyway" treatment...I take the male out, but am not opposed to trying again in a few days and have actually had females copulate again after exhibiting such behavior.

For what it's worth, in 10 years of breeding Dry's, I've never had an egg-bound female, i've had some take their time (like as long as 24 days after prelay) to deposit, but never any stuck eggs. All the eggs are laid at the same time...however I have had eggs in the same clutch hatch as much as 2 weeks apart.

The only Dry breeder who make that claim!!We all want to know what your secret is!!
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

I have never bred a female that was under 4 years old!

>>I think it would be (or could be) dangerous for 2 reasons..
>>1) as DT knows, the could keep trying and injure the female very easily..
>>2) if OH's approach did actually stimulate or result in a second batch of eggs being fertilized, you'd be endangering the females health with 2 batchs, no matter how small, developing at different paces in her..We all ready know how much a single clutch takes from the females...
>>I put pairs together several times in a small time frame, say in 1 week...May see several copulations, but I don't think I'm getting more than 1 batch of eggs fertized...
>>Just my 2 sense
>>-----
>>Carl W Gossett
>>Garage Door Herps
>>Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

Hey Carl,

You are right about one thing...you should not leave them together and unattended unless they are copulating. Males can get pretty aggressive toward an unreceptive female.

However, I'm not so sure about the theory of having two simultaneously developing clutches in the same female. The way I remember the workings of the reproductive cycle, it doesn't go quite that way....of course, it's been quite a while and I could be a little off base here.

As I recall, within the oviduct (in snakes, for the most part, only the right oviduct is developed and functional) there are basically follicles in 3 stages of development at almost all times. The larger oocytes are ripe and ready for fertilization, then there are primordial oocytes that are in early prophase and surrounded by granulosal cells, and there are those that are in an intermediate stage of development. The oocytes that are ripe will determine the clutch for the present season, the intermediate ones are for the next clutch (next reproductive season) and the primordial cells will be for a subsequent season. The size of the oocyte and the number of oocytes correspond to the size of the eggs and the size of the clutch, respectively. Vitellogenesis does not occur simply because the snake has mated. Sperm is stored within the oviduct. When vitellogenesis does begin, the ovarian follicles and the oviducts begin a rapid hypertrophy and the sperm can fertilize the follicle. At that point Vitellogenin from the liver travels through the bloodstream and is incorporated into the follicle and begins the development of the yolk. Apparently, the process can take several weeks to fertilize all of the follicles during vitellogenesis, across several matings and the female will be at least periodically receptive throughout this period. The more fresh, live sperm cells you have present within the oviduct, the better the chance of having all or most of the mature follicles fertilized. The endometrium is composed of 2 layers, the Lamina propria (supportive tissues) and the Lamina epithelialis (secretory and ciliated cells). The ciliated cells perform two functions, one is to move mucus from the front to the rear and out, and there is another band of ciliated cells whose motion works in the other direction and facilitates the movement of sperm toward the follicles during the fertilization phases. The epithelial lining undergoes a drastic change during vitellogenisis and the secretory cells become fully developed and begin production of GAGs and calcium to form the egg shells. Once production of the eggshell begins, the snake is gravid and becomes non-receptive to mating.

That's the short and quick....and why I don't think you're going to end up with two different clutches in different stages of development.

I have never seen a snake bind on a fertile egg. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but if it does I think it is rare. There may be fertile eggs stuck in the uterus behind a bound slug, but it's the slug that's bound. There are more changes that occur within the lining of the uterus at parturition time (or before) that cause the fertile egg to be released from the uterus. That is accompanied by an involution of the corpora lutea, which results in a sharp drop in progesterone levels, allow uterine contraction to occur to expel the eggs. In a truly egg-bound snake, in every case I've seen, there was an unfertilized egg still stuck to the uterine wall, therefore the uterine contractions could not move the slug. In my opinion, manually trying to move the egg in a case like that will likely tear the uterine wall. If the snake is truly egg-bound, then I would opt for surgical removal. I've had snakes take as long as 5 to 7 days to complete egg-laying, but they always manage to get them out on their own if the eggs are fertile. If it takes more than 7 days, then I would worry about egg-binding and would go ahead and open the snake up and remove the bound eggs. I wouldn't advocate using oxytocin unless I was reasonably sure that contractions either were not occurring or were of insufficient intensity and/or duration to expel the eggs. If an egg is still adhered to the wall of the uterus, no amount of muscle contraction is going to move it inducing more contractions may cause tearing of the lining.

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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Vitellogenesis does not occur simply because the snake has mated. Sperm is stored within the oviduct. When vitellogenesis does begin, the ovarian follicles and the oviducts begin a rapid hypertrophy and the sperm can fertilize the follicle. At that point Vitellogenin from the liver travels through the bloodstream and is incorporated into the follicle and begins the development of the yolk. Apparently, the process can take several weeks to fertilize all of the follicles during vitellogenesis, across several matings and the female will be at least periodically receptive throughout this period."

hi O.H.

there's something confusing me in this portion of your excellent reproductive cycle description. i've never studied the internal workings of snake reproduction, so please bear with me here.

i'm familiar with lizard ovarian development and the difference is that lizard follicles undergo vitellogenesis completely within the ovary -- prior to ovulation and prior to fertilization. fertilization occurs in the oviduct, prior to movement of the eggs into the shell gland region of the oviduct/uterus. the only vertebrates i'm aware of that fertilizes ova within the ovary are some fish species.

so my question is: what happens to a large female exposed to the correct environmental cues, but not exposed to a male? does she yolk her follicles and then reabsorb the yolk? does she ovulate? are snakes induced ovulators like some mammalian species?

so much to learn!

matt

>>hi O.H.
>>
>>there's something confusing me in this portion of your excellent reproductive cycle description. i've never studied the internal workings of snake reproduction, so please bear with me here.
>>
>>i'm familiar with lizard ovarian development and the difference is that lizard follicles undergo vitellogenesis completely within the ovary -- prior to ovulation and prior to fertilization. fertilization occurs in the oviduct, prior to movement of the eggs into the shell gland region of the oviduct/uterus. the only vertebrates i'm aware of that fertilizes ova within the ovary are some fish species.
>>
>>so my question is: what happens to a large female exposed to the correct environmental cues, but not exposed to a male? does she yolk her follicles and then reabsorb the yolk? does she ovulate? are snakes induced ovulators like some mammalian species?
>>
>>so much to learn!
>>
>>matt

Hi Matt,

Well, you're going to have to bear with me a little here...as I said it's been a long time. Here's the way I recall it.

You can effectively divide the oviduct into several parts, the infundibulum, the uterine tube, the isthmus and uterus and the vagina. During vitellogenesis, the yolk begins to form and the egg is fertilized within the infundibulum, then begins to move down toward the uterus. Within the uterine tube, the albumen is contributed. Once the egg reaches the uterus, shell formation begins. Before the eggs leave the infundibulum, they can be reabsorbed, yolk and all. Once they reach the uterus and calcification begins, they can't be reabsorbed. The reabsorbtion process is called follicular atresia. Normally, any mature follicles that did not develop and move down are eliminated by this process after parturition.

So, I would say that yes, she would ovulate from stimuli such as photo-period, temperature shifts, and other circadian factors, even if a male were not present. I also believe that other external stimulus can contribute to estrogen production and cycling. I think that the presence of a male and the stimulation of the "chase", in addition to other stimulus can induce a female to cycle. I don't think that the presence of the male and the stimulus he presents can cause her to cycle if the other factors are not present. I know that females can be induced to cycle on an abbreviated schedule by manipulation of photoperiod, temperature, humitity, etc. Males can definitely be induced to produce higher sperm counts and to enter into courtship behavior by stimulus such as the presence of an estrous female and by the presence of a "competing" male.

Frequently a female will lay clutches of infertile eggs when she has never been exposed to a male.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

"During vitellogenesis, the yolk begins to form and the egg is fertilized within the infundibulum, then begins to move down toward the uterus. Within the uterine tube, the albumen is contributed. Once the egg reaches the uterus, shell formation begins. Before the eggs leave the infundibulum, they can be reabsorbed, yolk and all."

hi O.H.,

this may seem trivial, but it's where a large difference between seasonal factors and courtship/copulatory factors may play a role.

my understanding of squamate reproduction follows this sequence of events:

follicles undergo vitellogenesis only while in the ovary. it's the fully yolked follicle that ovulates (ruptures through the ovarian wall and is taken into the infundibulum of the oviduct (mullerian duct derivative). once the eggs are outside of the ovary and inside the oviduct, they can no longer be reabsorbed. fertilization occurs after ovulation, while the eggs are in the more cranial portions of the oviduct (the infundibulum), before the albumin and shell material is laid down.

corpora atretica (atretic follicles) are found in the ovary and are the tissue remaining after a follicle has undergone atresia, i.e. has been reabsorbed.

if snakes are induced ovulators (like cats), then it would be rare for snakes to ovulate and oviposit a clutch in the absence of a male. aside from the rare examples of parthenogenesis, how often do mature female snakes, housed alone, lay clutches of eggs? i guess this is the main information i'm trying to get straight.

i agree that it would be next to impossible for a snake to produce two different clutches at different stages of development. the uterus is supported by progesterone from the corpus luteum. the progesterone also inhibits the hypothalamus from releasing gonadotropin releasing hormone, which in turn inhibits the release of gonadotropins (LH & FSH) from the pituitary gland. there wouldn't be any further follicular stimulation, no vitellogenesis and no ovulation.

matt

Agreed on all points.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I think you make my point in your description of the follicle and oocyte in to 3 developemntal stages, those ripe ie ready for this season, developing ie for next season, primordials for the future...
I think you are fertilizing the first set of "ripe" follicles/oocytes in any one season..I think the danger is in releasing and/or stimulating developement and release of the second group you mention..If female snakes are inducible like cats and some ungulates(males are always "inducible", I think!!) then you run the risk of a "second" clutch developing in the same female at the same time and run health risks..All of this is my conjecture..
We all get eggs of different sizes in the same clutch because of the fertilizaton process taking place over a time frame as you describe(and Deanno)but I suggest that it is a short window, not several months..
I also agree with the slug versus fertile egg in "binding" However, I doubt real dystocia occurs in the uterus(more on this later)...Can uterotonics help? perhaps very early in the process (first 24 hours /-) But I can't give any personal experience that they do having tried them..
Your description of manipulation of the offending egg/eggs is right on and can occur anywhere from the uterus down..That's why it needs to be done SOONER, rather than later...I suggest that is a short time frame..A couple of days max..I highly doubt you can wait a week or more with real dystocia because I think you begin to get inflammatory changes and fibrin deposition fairly fast..My vet would concur..Note that other fertile eggs may be delayed in transiting to deposition, but these are not egg bound, in fact I would doubt egg binding actually can occur in the uterus..Probably why oxyocin doesn't seem to work..Uterine dystonia would not cause the physical problems, ie bowel and ureteral obstruction..
But most egg binding is apparent both in the physical appearance of the female and her activity..The binding/bulge is supra-cloacal..Once she stops "pushing" it's over for all intents and purposes..Again, my 2 "sense"..
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

>>I think you make my point in your description of the follicle and oocyte in to 3 developemntal stages, those ripe ie ready for this season, developing ie for next season, primordials for the future...
>>I think you are fertilizing the first set of "ripe" follicles/oocytes in any one season..I think the danger is in releasing and/or stimulating developement and release of the second group you mention..If female snakes are inducible like cats and some ungulates(males are always "inducible", I think!!) then you run the risk of a "second" clutch developing in the same female at the same time and run health risks..All of this is my conjecture..
>>We all get eggs of different sizes in the same clutch because of the fertilizaton process taking place over a time frame as you describe(and Deanno)but I suggest that it is a short window, not several months..
>>I also agree with the slug versus fertile egg in "binding" However, I doubt real dystocia occurs in the uterus(more on this later)...Can uterotonics help? perhaps very early in the process (first 24 hours /-) But I can't give any personal experience that they do having tried them..
>>Your description of manipulation of the offending egg/eggs is right on and can occur anywhere from the uterus down..That's why it needs to be done SOONER, rather than later...I suggest that is a short time frame..A couple of days max..I highly doubt you can wait a week or more with real dystocia because I think you begin to get inflammatory changes and fibrin deposition fairly fast..My vet would concur..Note that other fertile eggs may be delayed in transiting to deposition, but these are not egg bound, in fact I would doubt egg binding actually can occur in the uterus..Probably why oxyocin doesn't seem to work..Uterine dystonia would not cause the physical problems, ie bowel and ureteral obstruction..
>>But most egg binding is apparent both in the physical appearance of the female and her activity..The binding/bulge is supra-cloacal..Once she stops "pushing" it's over for all intents and purposes..Again, my 2 "sense"..
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>>Carl W Gossett
>>Garage Door Herps
>>Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

OK, I get where you're coming from now. I don't think I've ever seen anything like that happen, but I'll concede that it's possible. The length of the period during vitellogenesis when fertilization can occur varies from species to species, as can follicular development, and in some species can actually be interrupted by brumation and hibernation (Alligator mississippiensis is a good example). In some Chelonians, it can last for months or even years in some of the northenmost species. I think under normal conditions and considering normal hormonal activity, you would probably only find one "group" of oocytes reaching maturity at any one time. I would think that to trigger development of other undeveloped oocytes/follicles would require the use of hormones. I suppose that hormone production could be "tricked", and cause the development of the next group of oocytes while the first clutch is still in gravidity. I'm just not convinced it could be done with simple stimulus. Wouldn't that be sort of akin to a woman becoming pregnant again while she is in a more advanced stage of pregnancy with a first fetus? The hormones that would allow that to occur should have been shut down when she became pregnant with the first one.

I agree with your assessment of eggbinding and manipulation of the eggs, but I'll go a step further. I don't think that in a case of dystocia caused by an egg adhered to the wall of the oviduct manipulation is going to help no matter when you start it. If it does move the egg, I think the chances are very good that tissue damage is going to occur, opening the path for bacterial infections and possibly sepsis. Sometimes oxytocin treatment IS successful, indicating that biding does occasionally occur in the uterus. I think that, as you indicated, whether oxytocin works or not depends upon where the egg is bound. All oxytocin is going to do is to cause a drop in progesterone levels, allowing natural contractions to occur...or, in cases where natural contraction are already occurring, by dropping the levels even further it may intensify the contractions, increase frequency, and elongate duration. I think in a case where an egg was bound sufficiently that natural contractions couldn't move it, then there is a chance of causing tearing by artificially increasing the contractions if you do cause the egg to move. It's easy enough to repair (suture) the tissue from an incision made to remove the eggs, but more difficult to repair the tear if you even detect it in time. Oxytocin may be more useful in cases where the snake does not have the muscle tone and strength to "push" the eggs out.

I think it's also important to remember that dystocia can have several causes, from eggs that are adhered to oviduct tissues, to pelvic malformations, to two eggs being bound together and therefore being too large to pass through the cloaca or simply a single egg that is too large to pass, to blockages caused by abcesses or cystic calculi, or even poor muscular condition. It is important to know exactly what is causing the binding in order to know how to proceed.

I think that there is probably less chance of injury caused by manipulation if the snake is anesthetized first.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I almost forgot to ask...you mentioned using uterotonics. I'm not sure what you are suggesting (showing my ignorance here). Would that be to control hemorrhaging in the event that the lining of the oviduct or uterus were torn?
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Oxytocin, pitocin et al are uterotonics..They are direct muscle stimulants..They don't act by changing horomones...The are specific smooth muscle contractors, enhance and strengthen natural contractions or re-start a tired uterus..
The reason I say manipulation must be done soon is the inflammatory reaction stimulated by a bound egg stimulates fibrotic changes in the birth canal...They don't come with fibrosis, it developes with time and very shortly...I agree with the size, shape components of the egg contributing to the problem..
Now just to complicate things, if I am right in my speculation about possible danger of too widely separated fertilization times...
What do we make of the supposed ability of the female to "retain" sperm and have it remain viable??!! Or the "plug" the female may retain after sucessful mating?? ??Perhaps those are mechanisms to prevent multiple copulations for a reason?? Ensure viable oocyte developement?? I don't know, just throwing it out there..
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

these are hormones themselves(oxytocin, etc) to be more correct..But they don't "manipulate" hormone levels, they just perform a specific function, ie stimulation of contractions...
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

>>these are hormones themselves(oxytocin, etc) to be more correct..But they don't "manipulate" hormone levels, they just perform a specific function, ie stimulation of contractions...
>>-----
>>Carl W Gossett
>>Garage Door Herps
>>Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>these are hormones themselves(oxytocin, etc) to be more correct..But they don't "manipulate" hormone levels, they just perform a specific function, ie stimulation of contractions...
>>-----
>>Carl W Gossett
>>Garage Door Herps
>>Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

Oh, OK. I've not read up on how these drugs actually work for myself. I was under the impression that it caused a drop in progesterone levels to induce contractions (apparently erroneous information I got from someone else once). A high level of progesterone is what keeps the the contractions from occurring until it is time to expel the eggs, so that made sense to me....I'll go and do some reading now on oxytocin and related drugs....
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>>>these are hormones themselves(oxytocin, etc) to be more correct..But they don't "manipulate" hormone levels, they just perform a specific function, ie stimulation of contractions...
>>>>-----
>>>>Carl W Gossett
Declining levels of progesterone is part of what triggers the release of oxytocin to stimulate the muscles involved in the contractions.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I have 2 of my females bred, both fairly high red coloring. Had 1 girl pass a bunch of slugs this past spring & she needed help so SHE'S obviously going to get this year off. She IS doing great though, has all her weight back on & looking good. Thanx again Doug for making all those soothing noises while I was having my Drymarchon crisis.... there's STILL a bottle of Newfie Screech Rum awaiting youy!!! .. LOL... Any-hoo not to get sidetracked.. My Male started going a little crazy the 1st week I was back from the US, so once the gals were outta the blue & all parties involved were WELL fed..... I tossed them into 'Cruise's Lair' I can't believe how long these guys lock up for, we're talking almost 7 hours for 1 breeding. My male has quite the libido too, no candlelight & roses OR foreplay.

I know mating is the 1st step in a looooooong wait. Getting the males to do the banging is the easy part from what I've been told. Best of luck to everybody for ther 2005 breeding season.

Dean