Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well I decided to try my luck today at some abandoned buildings I knew of. After trying the first 2 spots with no luck I arrived at the third and began flipping tin. When I entered the building this beauty was climbing on what used to be a fuse box. She was found on the opposite side of the Osceola county as the other one, about 60 miles away.

n/p

n/p

All I ever find are ribbons and garters. I live in S. Florida( palm beach county) so what's my problem? Gotta keep trying.

I've only found 4 corns in my lifetime. I've lived here 6 years and I hadn't found one until August. Since then I've found these 2. The other I found on vacation here before moving here about 8 years ago. That one was beautiful, would have passed for an oketee. I rarely find ribbons or garters. On any given day I could find yellow rats, ringnecks, water snakes, and during the right months cottonmouths. That's the only stuff I regularly find.-Cole

thats usually where i find some.....bad time of year tho

spring and summer

keith
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I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

>>Well I decided to try my luck today at some abandoned buildings I knew of. After trying the first 2 spots with no luck I arrived at the third and began flipping tin. When I entered the building this beauty was climbing on what used to be a fuse box. She was found on the opposite side of the Osceola county as the other one, about 60 miles away.
>>

n/p
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Sincerely, Jason
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My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
My collection...
BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

Turns out the smaller individual is a male and the larger is a female. I mainly work with the larger boids but I decided to breed them for fun. I'd be lucky to make back the money invested, but with my other projects I can afford to do it for the love. I'm sorry, but in instances where a specie is plentiful and not protected, I have no problem with people privately collecting. -Cole

Besides, half the fun of breeding local species is that if you want, you can release all or some back where you found the parents! I have two wc corns from my neighborhood as well (male and female) and if they reproduce, I will definitely be releasing some of the youngsters back where the parents were found. Here's the male........

>>Turns out the smaller individual is a male and the larger is a female. I mainly work with the larger boids but I decided to breed them for fun. I'd be lucky to make back the money invested, but with my other projects I can afford to do it for the love. I'm sorry, but in instances where a specie is plentiful and not protected, I have no problem with people privately collecting. -Cole

This is a must read for any field herper. Personally, I try to only photograph herps in the wild but not everyone is as conservation friendly.

Anyway, I bookmarked this article in my link section of my website so I could refer to others it from time to time...I hope the fact that its from the other site won't exclude it from educating others. Oh well...here it goes...

No Where to Run, No where to Hide

or try..

www.herpenco.com/text/nowhere.html
(replace the 'h' with an 's' and copy/paste it in your address bar)
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Sincerely, Jason
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My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
My collection...
BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

Excelent article Carl. It seems that this would be common sense but many people cannot figure it out. I don't think it applies so much to collecting of wild snakes as it does habitat destruction though. I understand these thoughts well. The place where I found the more recent corn I have been to half a dozen times without any luck whatsoever, except a skink. Because I left things untampered, my persistence paid off. The juvenile racer and the ringneck I found at a place I had discovered the week before without any luck. Many times have I flipped something to find say, a ringneck snake, and rediscovered it minutes later when I flipped the same thing. I don't know of any areas frequented by any other herpers for the most part, so I don't run into this often, but I know it is discouraging. Almost everyone is guilty of collecting at some point in time and it easy to blame them for the demise of herps in the wild. In all reality, habitat destruction in the forms of new development and roadways will lead to the demise of herps in the wild much faster than collecting a few snakes for private use.-Cole

I for one have no problems with people collecting a very nice specimem for their personal use. It is the people who go out and collect EVERYTHING they can find to sell and make a profit!!! That is why I am glad KY has strict laws emplaced protecting our native herps. It is ILLEGAL to sell any native wild animal. Now we can field collect a male and a female snake and breed them and sell the offspring, as long as you have the proper permit. There is also a limit on the number of snakes you can keep in your possession that are W/C, this again keeps them from being overcollected. I RARELY keep anything found out in the wild, unless it is a very nice specimen and I am targeting that species. i.e. locale specific snakes. I am not into the morph stuff, and would rather have a nice locale specific animal than any of the high end morphs out there. Just my personal preference.
Brian

Here is a pic of my Meade county KY natural occuring eastern X red milk intergrade.

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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

It is much, much worse to take the animals from the wild vs. simply disturbing their habitat by leaving logs overturned, etc, etc. What's the point of leaving habitat intact if you take the animals?

I have a much different perspective b/c I live near an area where corns are protected due to over-collecting and habitat destruction. I think we can agree to disagree. HOWEVER, no one can convince me that collecting corns from the wild is a positive thing when this species is probably the most readily available animal in the reptile (if not entire pet) industry today.

Besides, digital cameras are much less expensive today...any herper can take amateur wildlife photos that appear professional.

Also, you stated..."In all reality, habitat destruction in the forms of new development and roadways will lead to the demise of herps in the wild much faster than collecting a few snakes for private use."

Where is the validity behind this statement? Is there any scientific data to back this up? Or is it just opinion? I'm not trying to be mean...but I would really like to know since every once in awhile I hear collectors use this argument. There is no doubt in my mind that overdevelopment weighs heavily on the amount of stress wild snake populations suffer but how can anyone really say that collecting is not as stressful on otherwise healthy herp populations? The mere fact that people collect would skew any population data taken in the field by real herpetologists. Who knows? Maybe I'm completely wrong and maybe corn populations are plentiful enough for every herper to
collect one.

"Almost everyone is guilty of collecting at some point in time and it easy to blame them for the demise of herps in the wild."

I think this is another statement that is simply unsubstantiated. How can you say that almost everyone has taken a herp from the wild at some point? Even if it were true, does that make it okay to continue collecting wild herps simply b/c others have done so?

I can PROUDLYsay that I do NOT fall into the 'almost everyone' category! Take Pics Not Animals....thats my motto!
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Sincerely, Jason
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My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
My collection...
BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

You have some valid points, however, I am into locale snakes, and there are not many people breeding locale specific snakes. Most everyone is into the different morphs and bright colored snakes. I just am not into that at all. Besides, I dont collect very often at all. There is nothing more exciting than going out looking for a couple target species and finding one that you really think is an exceptional animal. I have a few W/C snakes that are locale specific and no one breeds them. 99.9% of the snakes I came across last season are still out there. I didnt collect a single one last year, my buddy collected 2 or 3 and that was it. I dont think that a few snakes being collected in the wild is near as bad as the roadkill I have seen out herping! Some nights the tally of roadkill outnumbers the live specimens found!!! And that is just a small percentage getting killed. There are far more snakes out there than you know, they are very very good at hiding. I wish I would have kept an exact count of how many snakes of each species/ssp I came across!!! I know it was alot. At one spot, we came across 17 ringnecks under one piece of cover!!! We regularly found pairs of larger colubrids under cover. Sometimes 3 at once! So I know where I go picture taking, they are there!!

The people that should be getting slammed are the ones who regularly go out and collect everything they can get their hands on!! That really gets my blood boiling! And another post!
Brian
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Brian,
I appreciate your maturity in your sound reply... and for not blasting me regarding my opinion. I understand your point of view and I'm not trying to come off as some absolute purist with respect to wild snakes, but I think with corns as abundantly available as they currently are in the pet trade, there should be no need to collect them. I understand your desire to want locale specimens, and well, I have heard of a few people that are devoted to breeding locales specifically. Besides, what's the big deal if you have an animal from a specific locale vs. an animal that is representative of the look of a certain locale? Just curious. I picture it kinda like someone saying I want an okeetee locale animal regardless of how it looks, yet okeetees and normals are available that represent the broad spectrum of phenotypes found in jasper county. Anyway, I'm sorry to keep going on about it....Apparently collectors are the majority.

You did however bring up an interesting thought....why not train amateur and professional collectors in population surveys and have them spend so many hours in the field surveying for a set number of specimens they collect. Kinda like giving back instead of take take take. Just a thought...well its late...and I must say that I enjoy talking about this and playing devils advocate. lol
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Sincerely, Jason
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My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
My collection...
BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

Hi, Jason.

I'm not going to pick on you for your general opinion. I don't mind you having that at all. I just want to pick on this one point you made...
I understand your desire to want locale specimens, and well, I have heard of a few people that are devoted to breeding locales specifically. Besides, what's the big deal if you have an animal from a specific locale vs. an animal that is representative of the look of a certain locale? Just curious. I picture it kinda like someone saying I want an okeetee locale animal regardless of how it looks, yet okeetees and normals are available that represent the broad spectrum of phenotypes found in jasper county.

Many of the snakes I keep are locality specific, and for a reason. Let me just give you one example that has to do with corn snakes. Most corn snake people will tell you that the Miami phase corn is a color morph that the hobby tries for. We like the light gray background and the reddish blotches. Normally we don't question where it comes from as long as it looks good. But I want my snakes to come from se. FL for this reason...

I not only like the color/pattern of the Miami phase corn, but I like the idea that a "locality" Miami is a morph different from other corn snakes, and it fits into my idea of the perfect pet snake. It is a small corn, supposedly getting only about three ft.; it has behaviors for surviving in a subtropical habitat; and it has the other great qualities of corn snakes. What I'm looking for you can't see by just looking at the snake, however. I'm looking at the genes. I want the perfect snake to be the founder of my line of snakes.

To sum up my opinion, some breeders do take from the wild occasionally, because they are trying to get the best possible genes into their breeding stock, and also, sometimes they want to put some fresh blood into their breeding populations. All those pet snakes that thousands of pet owners now keep had to have come from someplace, or some w/c snake, originally. The fact that there are so many corn snake keepers today means that not too many corns are collected any more, however, which is good. But I would never deny the occasional purist his try at the husbandry thing.

Thanks for listening....Terry.
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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains ratsnakes and corns

Terry, Thank you for not picking. I’ll try to be as cordial as you were.

There is nothing wrong with liking a certain look attached to a locality corn but after a few professional breeders have collected that locale and produced it in large enough quantities for all to enjoy, then why is there still a need to collect it?

You’re right, it is difficult to tell a locale from a selectively bred animal with a similar phenotype but that is when placing trust in a pro breeder comes in. Besides, I would think that it is better to support a private or professional breeder by purchasing from their existing stock rather than collecting for hopes of increasing your own collections diversity.

One problem could simply be that increasing numbers of people may want wild corns for simply improving bloodlines or for founding stock. This can have a devastating effect on wild populations in certain areas. Which areas? Who knows? I could be, and probably am wrong. lol

I totally respect your opinion and by far it has made me think about the other side of this issue the most. You are right; all corns had to come from somewhere originally but when is it okay to say we have enough diversity in our captive bred bloodlines? Aren’t ball pythons facing a somewhat comparable scenario? Over collecting to meet demands of diverse bloodlines? If it were the occasional purist, that is one thing…but with our hobby growing by leaps and bounds…we cannot think small. Is it really the occasional purist collecting or are there more hobbyists and breeders collecting more frequently than we previously thought? Could all this be adding up to harming wild corn populations? Maybe/maybe not? Well, apparently not in Fla since a few people have mentioned that corns are extremely plentiful down there. Maybe I should move to Fl so I don’t have to spend so much money on CB corns and shipping (and anoles for non feeders).lol Well, this has been an interesting thread to say the least...I surely did not intend to start so much controversy or discussion.

Overall, I still don't feel that anyone has successfully answered my question of whether or not there is any evidence of positive impact on wild populations (or the environment in general) resulting from collecting in the wild. Well...I am a teacher and have a TON of stuff to do for school this weekend so I unfortunately cannot keep responding to replies to my posts, despite how interesting it all has been. As much as I have enjoyed this discussion, I'm afraid I think its time to end and move on and make room for more PICS! I’m surprised the mods even let it go this far.lol
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Sincerely, Jason
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My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
My collection...
BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

Jason, I can give you a response as to why collecting might have a positive impact on the environment, as an environmentalist and teacher myself. But you're right, this isn't the right time. I'm running out of time this weekend too, and wouldn't be able to spend the amount of time on it I'd like to. There'll be another time. Hang in there. It's an imperfect world...stay positive

PS: E-mail me if you want to talk more and when you get time.

TC

Carl, I read the article you posted and I agree with some points but I am still unsure why the author is so riled up about people looking in an area and not replacing boards or logs exactly as they found them. The law of ecological succession states that when an ecological niche is destroyed, a new niche is created. For example, when a tree falls in the forest, it leaves room for more moss and liceans to move into its spot, and allows for more sun to go to that spot. Secondary succession then takes place, and the area will regrow. In many instances this can be beneficial to the environment by restoring nutrients. If a board is not put down exactly where it was found, the organisms living there will find more suitable spot and the spot where the board now lies, will become a new niche. On collecting specimens, if an animal is taken, this allows animals of the same species to have more resources for themselves, thus a better chance of survival. (This is only true up to a certain point, as animals need to be able to find a mate in order to reproduce.) Also, where are these "hot spots" where herpers frequent so often? I think the real issue here is that more should be done to restore previously degraded habitat.

Let me know what you think,
Zach

P.S. I am a junior in high school and I do not do any field collecting, but do volunteer to restore habitats and remove invasive species from nearby parks.
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AIM sn: z10silver

Zach,

You've got a good point there, it's all about the habitat, which will largely take care of itself. But it's also about people's attitudes. I admire the fact that you're learning some good principles in H. S. and are putting your knowledge to use, but some of us that have been around herpetology for a long time also know that it's about the people involved. I keep a collection, but also do a lot of field herping, and don't think it hurts a population to remove a speciman or two from a healthy population.

The article in question was more about the microhabitat created by the boards and other cover and the person's reaction to the destruction of that rather than the overall habitat. There's always going to be some areas where the microhabitat produces more specimens than the general environment. I think field workers and collectors have a vested interest in these microhabitats as well as the conservation of the species.

When talking about people's attitudes I think we should be talking about how folks perceive the hobby and what is ethical, but also how people in general perceive herps and their knowledge of them, their importance, and their habitats.

Good luck in school and hope you stick around the herp community.

Terry

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AIM sn: z10silver

>>Brian,
>>I appreciate your maturity in your sound reply... and for not blasting me regarding my opinion.

-Opinions are just that, opinions and everyone has one. I wouldnt blast anyone for feeling how they feel about something.

I understand your point of view and I'm not trying to come off as some absolute purist with respect to wild snakes, but I think with corns as abundantly available as they currently are in the pet trade, there should be no need to collect them.

-True, corns are very abundant in the pet trade, however, not specific locale animals. Sure anyone can go and buy a normal corn at a local pet store or at a reptile show. But unless the breeder has collected the parents you have no idea what stock the animals came from. This is great for someone who just wants one for a pet, or someone who is looking to breed a specific trait, i.e. albinos. But someone who collects locale specific snakes can see the small color differences in them. For example, the prairie kings here in KY get a gun metal gray overcast to the coloration, whereas a prairie that comes from say OK or KS, does not. Black rat snakes are another. Here in KY, they rarely turn jet black, and maintain their saddles and coloration into old age. But over in MO, they are jet black! That is the amazing thing about locale specific animals. How much a species can vary throughout its range!! Here is an example:
My male 01 KY black rat snake

And my male MO locale black rat

As you can see both obsoleta, but totally different wild variations! Very few people breed locale specific animals because there is no money in it. A normal hatchling black rat to most people will only sell for $10-$15. Even though it is locale specific, and that is because of all the morphs out there that are "eye-candy" and the normals are not as appealing to most people as the colorful snakes. The reason corns are so overhunted is because as far as the colubrids go, they are the normal colored snake that is already an "eye-candy" right out of the wild. Normal corns are some of the most attractive colubrids out there and are easy to sell. They are mostly very non-aggressive when W/C vs. the other rats, and because of this they are hunted heavily.

I understand your desire to want locale specimens, and well, I have heard of a few people that are devoted to breeding locales specifically. Besides, what's the big deal if you have an animal from a specific locale vs. an animal that is representative of the look of a certain locale? Just curious. I picture it kinda like someone saying I want an okeetee locale animal regardless of how it looks, yet okeetees and normals are available that represent the broad spectrum of phenotypes found in jasper county. Anyway, I'm sorry to keep going on about it....Apparently collectors are the majority.

-The main reason I am into locale specific snakes is because their gene pool is not "polluted". Any number of snakes found in the hobby today are het, double het, or triple het for numerous morphs/colors. I want a snake that has a "pure" gene pool. Sure, maybe the black rats here in KY are more than likely an intergrade of the black and gray rat, but it is a natural occuring intergrade, and not something that someone toyed around with to make. Call me crazy, but I like the "normal" snakes much better than any "eye-candy" out there. There are some very attractive snakes, and people have worked hard to get the outcomes that are there, but that is not what I enjoy.

>>You did however bring up an interesting thought....why not train amateur and professional collectors in population surveys and have them spend so many hours in the field surveying for a set number of specimens they collect. Kinda like giving back instead of take take take. Just a thought...well its late...and I must say that I enjoy talking about this and playing devils advocate. lol

-If I got to keep X amount of snakes for the amount of time I spent in the field this last season, I would be out of room!! LOL We spent ALOT of time out running around! This next season Im gonna log the amount of time spent out in the field as well as the location and #'s of snakes found.

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>>Sincerely, Jason
>>-----
>>My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
>>My collection...
>>BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
>>PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
>>COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
>>CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
>>OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

wont casually give out information on their sites. My herping buddy and I have spent hundreds of hours and much gas money scouting out and "improving" snake habitat. This includes finding the owner of the said property and getting permission to be on the land and improving the area. Currently I do not herp on public land, because of the problems with other people having access to it and the site disturbance that comes along with it. The good thing about hunting on private property, is that it ensures no one else will be hitting your sites without getting ran off by a shotgun wielding land owner!! I make sure to call them a day or two prior to us hitting the area, so they know it is me and not someone else without permission. They know my vehicle, so they know it is me. There is alot of hard work and effort going into this kind of herping, but it is well worth it. I get to meet some very nice people and sometimes educate them on the benefits of snakes. Most people are very interested as to what kind of snakes are on their land, and are fascinated when we show them a huge black rat or a very nice red milk, or even a corn!!

So it is without a doubt that most herpers will not share this info with just anyone, and there are good reasons why!! I dont want some idiot trashing my areas and pissing off the land owners, and thus ruining it for everyone else in the future!! So most herpers need to understand the balance that needs to be maintained within the scope of herping.

Go out and have fun herping, but dont tear up everything in sight doing it.

Where are my sites you ask??? Ill never tell!!! LOL
Brian

My herpin partner and a nice southern black racer found at one or our sites...

-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

collecting, since its author is one that has made many, MANY dollars over the years from breeding for traits he has uncovered from wild caught specimens. It is a good case agianst the damage done to micro-habitats, which are so important to herps in an immediate area, but it says nothing about field collecting for breeding purposes.
-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

I think that article relates well since (in my opinion) it is much, much worse to take the animals from the wild vs. simply disturbing their habitat by leaving logs overturned, etc, etc.

I have a much different perspective b/c I live near an area where corns are protected due to overcollecting and habitat destruction. I think we can agree to disagree. HOWEVER, no one can convince me that collecting corns from the wild is a good thing when this species is probably the most readily available animal in the reptile (if not entire pet) industry today.

Besides, digital cameras are much less expensive today...any herper can take amateur wildlife photos that appear professional.

Take Pics Not Animals....thats my motto!
-----
Sincerely, Jason
-----
My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
My collection...
BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

"I think that article relates well since (in my opinion) it is much, much worse to take the animals from the wild vs. simply disturbing their habitat by leaving logs overturned, etc, etc"

I could just as easily say that the article Rich wrote is an outraged rant about overpaid atheltes, because I find THAT issue to be morally unacceptable. However, me saying there is a connection (even when citing it as my opinion only) when there obviously is none...

Well, it just isn't an evidence I believe you can use that way. Rich collects in the wild for his breeding purposes, and I would be willing to bet you big money (were I a gambling man) that he had snake bags with him as he was with those two guys in his story!
-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

I don't know if any of you frequent [bleep] ( I know little of the rivalry, just that it is there) but if you visit it there is a post, by me, with over 60 replies long. It is close to the top of the screen, it it growing at nearly 30 posts a day. The entire thing is about collecting from the wild. If you want to get into it, take a look there, and if there is something you find left out( which I highly doubt) leave a post. Otherwise, I have heard it all and I'm not in the mood. I doubt you would have reacted so strongly had I collected a garter snake though.-Cole

then simply don't post messages that you know will spark a bit of talk or controversy. You set yourself up as a target so deal with the consequences of your action. AND yes, I would react as strongly if I were a garter snake enthusiast and someone was posting in that forum about taking them from the wild. I don't care what species it is, all herps are better off if left alone in the wild. There is simply no arguing it, but its just my opinion. What has been collected, has been collected and there is nothing that can be done about it now except learn and educate and conserve for future generations, which is all I'm trying to convey. There is nothing wrong by me trying to play devils advocate. AND its nothing against you personally...its an argument in general against a philosophy that you and many others share. And if everyone felt as you, laws would not protect certain species worldwide and many species like Argentine boas or whatever would be extinct by now. well its late and I realize that you don't want to hear it anymore so enjoy your wild cornsnakes.
-----
Sincerely, Jason
-----
My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
My collection...
BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

Which no one has the right answer to because it is their opinion. We can attach human emotions to snakes and say the (individual) snake is "happier" in the wild but then we are using double standards because when looked at the situation (again through human logic and emotions) we would see the snakes on the individual basis in captivity live longer lives. I'm not saying they are happier in captivity but if guaranteed meals, water, shelter and a longer lifespan what is to say the individual snake isn't happier in captivity. You do not know, I do not know, no one knows. On a population level I strongly doubt that removing 2 snakes located sixty miles apart will have any noticeable impact on the population. Corn snakes are considered abundant here and they occasionally turn up in downtown areas. Given this, natural predation could have removed these snakes just as easily as I had. What is not to say that human predation is not natural? We are all technicaly animals, and were we running around wearing loin cloths we very well may have been eating them. Our roadways, and developments, our ignorance, and foolishness, it all has an affect on the environment. Like you said "if I were a garter snake" person or something along those lines, you would have been offended. But you aren't,(or at least that is what it sounds like) so therefore there is emotion and opinion in your response to my post making it nothing more than feelings all typed up. But who gives a hoot about that anyways, lets all just preach what we think in a non-discretional manner because we can. Oh yeah, here's the picture again. She's a beauty huh?-Cole

I like the coloration on her belly. Anyway, its late and I suppose you're right as well....its all just opinion...sorry to cause you so much grief.....enjoy your animals....peace, jason
-----
Sincerely, Jason
-----
My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
My collection...
BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

Just a note of curiousity as to what you might think. Considering how commonly corns are bred in captivity and how little the mainsteam pressure is on wild caught corns. Hardly anybody has a wild caught corn because there is plenty of captive supply. On that note, would it not be easier on the species to collect a corn rather than, say, a coachwhip which isn't bred commonly in captivity? Ok I promise that is the end of it. No hurt feelings, I appreciate input from others opinions, it is good to get a little different perspective every now and then.-Cole

Argentine boas...they are readily bred and available in captivity yet are extremely rare in the wild. Just becuase they are plentiful in the pet trade doesn't mean it would be easier on the species for herpers to collect them from the wild.

Another thought to ponder...have you ever wondered how field researchers gather their data on populations? I did and it is really interesting to read some of the methods used for field surveys and it makes me wonder if some snakes are as endangered in certain regions as we think. (although I have informally observed a severe decline in my area). Also, as you stated earlier (i think)...snakes are ultimately designed to remain hidden in parts of the environment we would rarely think of looking. One last thought/question, could your snakes have been tagged with implants? Could they be part of a scientific study? and if so, is there any way to find out? maybe a vet or a local herp breeder who works with that type of equipment. Just curious.
-----
Sincerely, Jason
-----
My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
My collection...
BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

She is pretty, Cole. How 'bout a closeup of the other corn you found? Thanks...Terry.

Darin, I'm not going to continue on about the article. That is simply NOT what I wanted to focus on and its silly to continue arguing about it. If you want, feel free to read my other replies and maybe it will better express my concerns and opinions about collecting wild corns. I'm sorry if I confused you by bringing that particular article into the mix. I apologize. However, if you wish, I can refer to several other pieces of literature that more specificcally support my argument against field collecting. However, it would simply be citing an author's opinion and nothing more. Therefore, if you can argue a reason or provide evidence for why or how collecting wild corns is positive for the ecosystem/environment, then please do so...otherwise, stop trying to justify the collection of wild corns based on my misuse of the article. ~Jason

Where do you come off with that attitude toward me? What did I do except try to express my doubtfulness of that particular article being of any benefit to your argument? Because I disagreed with you, you have to chastise me in that public way???

As a matter of fact, I have no problem with your position as a whole. However, you are the one that was trying to impose your opinion on the matter (unsolicited, I might add) upon those with whom you disagree, and now, when you did so in an illogical fashion and you get called on it, you turn to attack me for being "confused" by your argumentation?

Unbelievable...why not just admit you were mistaken to use THAT article and be done with it? Nice.
-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Darin, I’m sorry if it seemed like I was offensive towards you. It is late and I am tired and that was not my intention and I apologize for what you perceived as an attitude.

However, I do not feel my use of that article was in poor taste, nor was it a mistake, as you stated. I used it after reading a post in another forum by this user in reference to a specific comment. I then referred back to this article. In fact, even if this article was loosely connected (but its not), it is still informative nonetheless, especially for anyone reading this thread and thinking they can simply go out and flip various habitat items to find corns.

I mainly wanted to discuss this issue and not start an argument. I simply asked if anyone could cite or provide evidence for any positive impact that collecting has had on the environment or wild snake populations. I was not trying to ‘impose’ my opinion on anyone. In fact, I made clear that it was only MY opinion. I NEVER tried forcing anyone to believe in what I believe or how I feel. There was nothing 'illogical' about what I typed so I got ‘called’ on nothing. I will NOT apologize to you nor will I admit I was wrong. You simply tried to pick apart my comments. I did not appreciate your trying to diminish my post by loosely comparing highly paid athletes to the over-collection of herps.

As I stated before, I’m sorry if you were confused by my comments, as my replies were tied to another post on another forum, which carried over. Next time I’ll try to be clearer with regards to what and why I’m referencing certain things.

I do not wish to discuss this any further simply because it’s obvious that I disagree with you wholeheartedly, and as long as that is the case, we will both continue to get upset with one another.

Thanks, Jason

Darin...I'm sorry if I was rude or ignorant to you in any way. I apologize for anything that I may have said to upset you or cause you to get angry in anyway. I am really not that type of person and was simply having one of those occassionally rare days we all get sometimes when our emotions get the better of us. I hope you forgive me and I will try to be much more civil in the future. Once again, I am sorry.

Happy Holidays!
Sincerely,
Jason

Hey Jason. Just to jump in here for a second, I don't think you realize just how common and plentiful corns are down here in Florida. I grew up in the northeast (NJ) and being a huge snake fan, could only find garters and northern waters on a regular basis. In the 18 years I spent up there, I only found two black rats, single earth snake, single pine snake, single chain king and several timber rattlers and copperheads besides the garters and waters. In Florida, corns regularly turn up in people's houses, back yards, office compexes, etc. Heck, when I was in college at FAU, my roommates found an adult male miami phase literally sitting at the entrance to our dorms! I used to herp on campus on the weekends (FAU is in a fairly busy city) and could regularly find corns, racers and gators as well as eggs from all three, so to take the position that collecting a couple of snakes to keep privately is detrimental to the overall population IN FLORIDA at least, is just not true. I have two wc corns currently, one that was found on the side of my house one night with a deforme eye, multiple healing wounds and a very thin appearance, so my guess is, she wasn't gonna make it much longer (but who knows). So now she lives the life of luxury with regular feedings, a nice cozy place to den up every night and no worries from domestic cats, dogs, hawks, owls, racers, giant toads, etc. My male was simply picked up along the roadside one evening while I was walking my dogs. I have shooed others off the road only to find them dor several days or weeks later. Very sad. So instead of just bringing him home to show my daughter, I decided to keep him and pair him up with the female I already had. If the produce, I will likely release all back into the areas where I found the parents. I will end this by saying, that I do not condone those that will go out and collect everything they can get their hands on, throw them in mass tubs and then sell them to the public, but for the private herper who collects one or two or five individuals over the course of several years, I have no problem with. Also, as a kid growing up hunting, fishing and camping, I was always taught to leave everything in nature as you found it. Seems like common sense to me, but apparently not for everyone.

Billy

>>n/p
>>-----
>>Sincerely, Jason
>>-----
>>My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
>>My collection...
>>BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
>>PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
>>COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
>>CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
>>OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.

Billy, could the large number of corns in Fla be a result of people releasing them into the wild (whether intentional or not). I have heard many stories about numerous alien herp species thriving once released into the Fl env’t. I’m not sure of the extent or impact on wild fauna but anyway, I am not familiar with Florida, nor any other state’s actual population surveys for herps so I simply do not know. Maybe I’m wrong and you’re right..and corns are plentiful enough for the average collector to take a few. However, the average no. of collectors has likely increased steadily (if not exponentially) over the past few years due to the increasing popularity of this hobby.

I am mainly curious if whether or not anyone can actually cite proof or provide evidence for any positive impact that collecting has on the environment or wild snake populations. Rehabbing an injured snake is one thing but keeping it is different. Besides, what is wrong with the threat of starvation in the wild or worries from domestic cats, dogs, hawks, owls, racers, giant toads, etc….it is nature to one degree or another (survival of the fittest). I like what someone else said….humans are a part of this cycle but most people take out of want, not out of need. I enjoyed reading your post. You brought up some interesting points and I appreciate your opinion.

Also, and I may be wrong…but I am under the impression that northeast nj is not corn territory…its only southeastern NJ in remote pockets of atlantic and burlington counties so that may explain why you never found them.

I do not think that the large number of corns found in FL is due to intentional releases as I believe that people would be finding all kinds of mutations if that were the case. Then again, maybe not because they would not be as suited to survive in the wild. I believe they are so common because they have evolved into extremely adaptable animals that have the ability to not only survive, but thrive in suburban and even semi-urban environs, at least in southern Florida where the weather is relatively mild all year and their food sources (anoles, geckos, hylid frogs and rodents) are hugely plentiful. As to your supposition about collectors' numbers increasing steadily, I would have to disagree. Again, as a kid growing up in the 70's, I was always collecting everything I could, and even when I started to have the money to buy animals, they were always likely wild-caught. There just wasn't the huge numbers of captive-bred animals back then that are available today. And they certainly were not nearly as readily available as they are today (there was no internet back in the stone ages! haha!). So my point here is that with the huge number of readily available, cbb, hardy animals available at relatively low prices, why would anyone but a kid with no money or a serious breeder looking to freshen up some bloodlines (like HotShot or Terry Cox) even WANT to go out and collect a relatively thin, parasitized animal that will bite, musk, thrash, defecate and possibly not even eat due to the stress of capture and containment? Now we all know that many snakes will adapt right away to captive conditions, but many more will not, and for the novice that just caught his/her first snake, this could prove frustrating for the keeper and possibly fatal for the animal. I have been keeping herps for the better part of 30 years, and I still had a hard time getting that little beat up corn snake to start feeding for me. I believe my experience with corns and many other species was what got her through that intial, tough adjustment. A first time snake owner might have had vastly different results, but I'm a sucker for a hard-luck case. Again, my plans for her are to breed her to the male I found down the street, raise up the babies for a few months and release the babies back into the neighborhood, even though most, if not all of the offspring will most likely succumb to predation, starvation or the bulldozers that are becoming more and more prevalent in my little neighborhood. If I can give one clutch per year a headstart on life and then reintroduce them to their native environment, I can feel great about taking their two parents out of THEIR native environment. These two snakes would likely never have met if not for me (just call me cupid!). As an aside, three weeks before I found the male, I found a roadkilled female in the same exact spot that had six eggs in her. Who knows, maybe she was the last female in that little green patch along with the boy. Let's suppose that's the case, then by my "saving" that guy and breeding him to the beat up girl, I may be able to succesfully "reintroduce" Elaphe (Pantherophis) guttata to that tiny little patch of habitat!! I happen to think that's pretty cool! Optimistic, I know, but kinda cool just the same.

Anyway, to answer your question, I think the only way that collecting specimens from the wild could possibly prove beneficial to the species as a whole is if a captive breeding program is started with those specimens with the intent of repopulation, similar to what is being tried with the California Condors and what has been done with the Peregrine Falcon. But collecting on a wholesale level to sell the collected animals to the general public is just wrong.

Thanks for playing "devil's advocate" with this subject as I believe it is a worthwhile topic of discussion and I have enjoyed reading all the different opinions on this.

Billy

>>Billy, could the large number of corns in Fla be a result of people releasing them into the wild (whether intentional or not). I have heard many stories about numerous alien herp species thriving once released into the Fl env’t. I’m not sure of the extent or impact on wild fauna but anyway, I am not familiar with Florida, nor any other state’s actual population surveys for herps so I simply do not know. Maybe I’m wrong and you’re right..and corns are plentiful enough for the average collector to take a few. However, the average no. of collectors has likely increased steadily (if not exponentially) over the past few years due to the increasing popularity of this hobby.
>>
>>I am mainly curious if whether or not anyone can actually cite proof or provide evidence for any positive impact that collecting has on the environment or wild snake populations. Rehabbing an injured snake is one thing but keeping it is different. Besides, what is wrong with the threat of starvation in the wild or worries from domestic cats, dogs, hawks, owls, racers, giant toads, etc….it is nature to one degree or another (survival of the fittest). I like what someone else said….humans are a part of this cycle but most people take out of want, not out of need. I enjoyed reading your post. You brought up some interesting points and I appreciate your opinion.
>>
>>Also, and I may be wrong…but I am under the impression that northeast nj is not corn territory…its only southeastern NJ in remote pockets of atlantic and burlington counties so that may explain why you never found them.

I think you've hit the nail right square on the head. I grew up in the Florida woods and corns at that time (early to mid- seventies) were EVERYWHERE. Nowadays, with all that rampant growth boxing us in on all sides, all our native species are facing a huge challenge as their habitats become smaller and more fragmented or just plain gone. INMHO, Carl, it is much worse to disturb/destroy a proven suitable hiding place or habitat than it is to remove one or two individuals and leave the spot intact for a new resident (and an empty spot WILL be utilized by someone else, that's why smart herpers don't ruin a good habitat). BTW, I believe that is the point of the article *ich posted. If you ruin that safe place, how do you know you haven't forced that individual into a dangerous situation, becoming road kill, prey ,victim of human ignorance, etc. while searching for new shelter? Either way, that particular animal is now gone. If someone collects one or two animals, breeds them, and releases the offspring back into a still intact, usable habitat, I personally feel that the ledger comes out on the plus side. Phew! Got a little long-winded there. Happy herping to all!

As requested by Terry. I don't have a camera of my own, I'm working on it though. This is probably the best pic I have of him to date. Both took two rat pups this morning.-Cole

>>n/p
>>-----
>>Sincerely, Jason
>>-----
>>My Website: www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
>>My collection...
>>BOAS: 0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa, 1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas, 1.1 Argentine Boas, 2.2 Nicaraguans, 1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas, 1.1 Cay Caulkers, 1.0 Columbian Boa 100% het Kahl Albino, 0.1 Anery Col boa, 1.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Hog Island Boa poss het patternless.
>>PYTHONS: 1.2 Green Tree Pythons, 2.2 Bismarck Ringed Pythons, 2.8 Normal Ball Pythons, 1.0 Ball Python 100% het Piebald, 1.1 Spotted Pythons.
>>COLUBRIDS: 1.1 Black Pines, 1.1 Northern Pines, 2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes, 1.2 White-sided Black Ratsnakes.
>>CORNS: 1.0 Blizzard, 1.2 Bloodreds, 1.2 Butters, 1.0 Ghost, 0.1 Sunglow, 1.0 Hypo het Amber, 1.1 Lavenders, 1.1 Miami Phases, 1.2 Reverse Okeetee, 0.1 Snow, 0.1 Striped Amel, 3.2 Okeetees.
>>OTHER: 0.0.3 N. Diamondback Terrapins.
-----
Joe

"Life is a banquet and most poor fools are starving to death"

1.2 Amel Motleys het Snow
0.1 Snow Motley
1.1 Emory Rats het Albino
0.1 Albino Emory Rat
1.1 Taiwan Beauties
0.0.3 Yellow Ackies
and a Partridge in a pear tree
actually he's a Blue & Gold Macaw

I have taken the time to read each and every post to here and have come to the conclusion everybody has an opinion so here's mine:

A. You need to be a responsible collector.
B. Collecting is important if not necessary for many breeders.
C. Florida does have a somewhat over population of corn snakes at least her in South Florida where I find at least 2-3 each year on my screened porch (I live in a very, very urban area).

I personally have no problem with collecting the occasional snake for a collection.
-----
Joe

"Life is a banquet and most poor fools are starving to death"

1.2 Amel Motleys het Snow
0.1 Snow Motley
1.1 Emory Rats het Albino
0.1 Albino Emory Rat
1.1 Taiwan Beauties
0.0.3 Yellow Ackies
and a Partridge in a pear tree
actually he's a Blue & Gold Macaw