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One of the local herp stores is selling what is named a Gray x Everglades intergrade, assuming the store knows what they are talking about (this is the same store I bought my Baird's from, but it was labeled as a Gray rat). The snakes are very young and seem to have blotching similar to that of Grays, nothing like young Baird's. The lighting isn't the greatest, so the color doesn't show up well. The gray seems to show a bit, but this thing seems to have a lot of pink. Maybe it's just the lighting, because Everglades are typically more orange than pink. Would anybody here happen to have seen one, or maybe have pictures of one? I do not need any more snakes (yes, that's a BIG grain of salt), but the prospect of how this intergrade may turn out as an adult sounds rather interesting.

Bry

Come to think of it, what they have there looks very much like this one, which is supposedly a pure Everglades.

I wonder if they screwed up the naming thing again, just because this juvie has some gray in it? Either way, I don't have any Everglades in my collection. Is $40 too much for a young Everglades, whether or not it's an intergrade? *evil grin* Damn, I knew I shouldn't have stepped in that store just for a quick browse.

Bry

Forty dollars is not a bad price for a pure glades. Don't forget, as juvies, they would look pretty much alike. The pictured snake could easily be an intergrade from what i could tell.

I was given (free) a Yellow x Black and it looks at this point like a normal black except that there is a yellow tint to the white on the underside. I can take a picture if it would help.

Rick

Well, it's not exactly a Gray and/or Everglades. But how can I say no to more ratsnake pics?

Bry

A pet store here has an adult. It jsut looks like a grey with a lot of orange/red undertones.

It is well known that spiloides intergrades with quadrivittata in Florida. As a matter of fact, the Gulf Hammock Ratsnake, formerly known as williamsi, now is considered by most as such an intergrade. However, the range of spiloides doesn't even come close to rossaleni's range, therefore these two subspecies do not intergrade. Captive spiloides x rossaleni hybrids do occur, but these should be considered as crossbreeds, not intergrades. It's always hard to tell what a juvenile american ratsnake will look like as an adult. Considering the fact that this store once sold you bairdi as spiloides, you can safely assume that they just name their animal as whatever suits them. So don't trust them on this, make up your own mind. You should also keep in mind that obsoleta subspecies crossbreeds are not exactly fashionable at this (or any) moment, they will be very hard to get rid of once you get bored with them, and you better forget about breeding them. My advise to you is to stick to pure, preferably locality specific animals. On the other hand, I remember having seen adult spiloides x rossaleni crossbreeds that really made my mouth water, so sometimes it may be worth taking a little risk.

Greetings,

Herman Bronsgeest.

I lived near the Gulf Hammock area and it is a natural intergrade zone. This zone runs roughly from Dixie Co. south to Hillsborough (according to Ashton). The gray rat has a wide zone of contact with the yellow.

The "Gulf Hammock" ratsnake is characterised by the twin stripes that extend from the head for at least three or more blotches down the Body-sometimes the length of the animal.

When I was there (in the eighties) you could commonly find anything from a near "Yellow" to a twin of the Gray. I also saw many orange colored yellow rats (some near to Everglades in appearance). That is why you see orange on many of the intergrades.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I've always been under the impression the term 'intergrade' referred to crosses between snakes that were of the same species but separate subspecies, regardless of range. On the other hand, I took the terms 'cross' or 'hybrid' as a way of labeling a cross of two separate species, such as P. g. guttata (guttatus?) x L. g. californiae.

As far as hybrids, I am not a fan of crossing species. However, in this case, if the snake at the store is indeed a cross; well, the damage has already been done the way I see it. It's still a snake any way you want to look at it. It's doubtful that I will give this snake away. I may not have been keeping herps as much as some people here, but in my 6 years in the hobby, I have kept every snake I've had purchased or given to me. Perhaps I didn't make it clear in my last post, but I don't take their word to be gospel, especially not after the whole spiloides/bairdi thing. Frankly, I really don't mind having a cross. It is not my sole intent to breed snakes until I turn blue in the face. If the snake is indeed a cross, it would remain strictly a 'pet' snake. If it is indeed a pure Everglades, then breeding is something I might consider. I've never seen a spiloides x rossalleni cross, but I would go as far as to fathom a guess that a spiloides x rossalleni cross will be easy enough to differentiate from a pure rossalleni.

Bry

Of course, there's nothing wrong with a crossbreed per se. As long as you intend to keep it and do not breed it, their limited marketability will not impose any problems for you. And sometimes these crossbreeds can be very handsome and enjoyable snakes indeed. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this kind of approach towards herpetoculture. Just don't release any of it's offspring into the wild when you experience difficulties getting rid off them the normal way, which shall be very hard indeed. There has been so much 'genetic polution' already.

Greetings,

Herman Bronsgeest.

Actually it would be very difficult to tell a Glade's gray cross from a yellow/gray.

For one thing, (if you accept that rossaleni is legitimate-which I don't)Glades and yellows are integrated so fully that as I said above, the "Glades influence is easily found at Gulf Hammock. Also there is so little difference between a Glades and a yellow (except color...is there anything else?) that any effort to key a difference in a intergrade would naturaly be impossible.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I can't speak from experience, but I meant that I was assuming I could tell the difference between a pure Glades or yellow, or a Glades x gray. I agree with you that I have seen snakes called Glades and yellows that look rather similar. But I would think that with a cross, you could see the influence of grays enough to tell the difference. This is only a guess as I have never seen a pic of such a cross (hint hint), so I could be horribly wrong.

Bry

That would not be the case because (I can tell you from experience) There is no "standard" intergrade look. I have seen all kinds of variation at Gulf Hammock.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."