Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here for Dragon Serpents
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
Click here to visit Classifieds

Mating Theory and Observations of the Eastern Indigo

robertbruce Dec 01, 2004 10:21 PM

Hi folks,

It looks like everyone is busy putting Drymarchon together. I posted earlier that I would provide details on my mating observations, and the general theory I have developed and am following.

For my couperi, the mating season is halfway over. I started putting animals together September 16.

I have 16 adult females and only 3 adult males. In July, all three males were pacing the front of their cages seemingly in unison. I didn't believe that there was any possibility of successful mating at that time, but the males were telling me otherwise. On a whim, I threw a female into each of the males cages, but observed no mating.

The pacing of the cages by the males continued daily until I put the same three females in on September 16. All three were pounced on immediately by each male and I observed copulation. For me to legitimately verify copulation, the male and female must lock up, and stay locked up for at least two hours. If they separate before that, I will consider it non-success. Also, I expect to see enlargement of the cloacal region in the female during lock up. It is almost as if there is a large marble or small golf ball inside her.

Over the upcoming 2 months, I put new females into the cages and tried putting females back in that had mated already. By November 11th, the 15th female verifiably locked up (number 16 may wait till next year because of a skin infection in her tail). Without an exception, females that had mated once refused to mate again until at least one month after the first mating. This was so uniformly true that now I don't even try to put a female back for a second mating until 5 weeks following the first mating. The female will frequently slap the male in the face with her tail, like an iguana will do, and this discourages the male quickly.

Currently, 15 females have locked up once, and 10 have locked up a second time. I have tried 2 for their third, but it was only one month after the second successful mating, and they refused.

In September, the temperature had not cooled at all, here in California. I put the animals together because of the obvious mating instincts I saw in the males.

What seems more and more clear to me is a thesis I will now explain. Firstly, it is daylength and not temperature that induces couperi females to ovulate. When they do, they produce and release a pheromone that the males in the room smell, and this sets the males into motion, pacing the cages and trying to get to the female they smell. In July, there must have been at least one female that had ovulated. All three males responded to the pheromone they detected. I didn't put in the right female. If I had tried all 16 females, I am sure now that at least one would be receptive, and mating would have occurred.

Once a female has mated, she becomes non-receptive for roughly 5 weeks. After this time, she becomes receptive to a second (or third, or fourth...) mating. During the period of non-receptiveness, I don't believe that she is releasing pheromone. When she becomes receptive again, she begins to release pheromone again. Each female ovulates during the mating season, but the exact time this happens is dependent on the individual. It does not require contact with a male. A female couperi will ovulate sometime in the broad window between July and November.

I suspect that multiple matings increase the likelyhood of fertile eggs. I expect that female couperi in the wild become receptive, release pheromone, attract a male, and are mated as many as six times during their period of fertility each year. I can't feel eggs in any of my females now. If the follicles have become fertilized, they won't calcify until early in the next year.

Males are willing to mate up to twice a week, but I have had males that refuse to mate until one week after their last mating. Again, I am not specifying simple courtship behavior, but lock up for at least two hours.

When males are opaque they won't mate. I haven't tried opaque females.

Based on these observations, I am trying to achieve 3 or 4 matings for each of the 15 females. Only time will tell if I get a good percentage of viable eggs. Right now, the temperature is getting down to the upper 50's at night. I try to get the daytime temperature to the low 80's each day, because Indigos bask in the sun and even on cold winter days they can attain body temperatures in the 80's. Warm daytime temperatures have not impaired successful mating activity in my animals.

An aquaintance of mine, Paul O'Connor, published a paper in Vivarium magazine quite a number of years ago, describing silicone-like plugs expelled by his females about 6 weeks after their first mating. My suspicion is this is congealed male semen, which may block another successful mating of the female until the plug is expelled. His time frame for expelling of the plug matches with my time frame of non-receptiveness. He did state an observation that possibly contradicts mine, that he would observe mating behavior during the interim period before the plug was expelled. I need to communicate with him about his observations, but it may well be that he was observing male courtship behavior but not actual lockup criteria, meeting the requirements I specified above. My couperi are not shy about mating, they will do it right in front of me. I always verify that a minimum of 2 hours of lockup occurs, and enlargement of the female cloacal region, to conclude that mating had actually occurred.

I would like to suggest that the silicone-like plug, which I have not noticed (and probably would not have noticed), may serve the functions of blocking the release of pheromone by the female, and also causing her to refuse mating. There may be a substance in the plug that binds to and inactivates the female pheromone, or it may just be a physical barrier. The presence of the plug may eliminate her desire for mating. When the plug is expelled, the pheromone is released again, and the female becomes receptive to additional mating.

I am hoping to have a lot of baby Easterns in 2005. Good luck everyone.

Robert Bruce.

Replies (8)

mrand Dec 02, 2004 12:55 AM

"What seems more and more clear to me is a thesis I will now explain. Firstly, it is daylength and not temperature that induces couperi females to ovulate."

hi robert,

thanks for the nice descriptions of your observations. it sounds as if you have a great system worked out.

i have a couple of questions:
*how do you know when the females have ovulated?
*do you think that females who don't mate are all reabsorbing the yolked follicles from the oviduct?
*are males not a part of the ovulatory cycle at all?

"I would like to suggest that the silicone-like plug, which I have not noticed (and probably would not have noticed), may serve the functions of blocking the release of pheromone by the female, and also causing her to refuse mating."

there have been a series of studies starting with david crews (U. Texas) in the '80s and continuing to present day with robert mason (Oregon State U.) that have shown that one of the main sources of pheromone is the skin. i think you're right about thinking the mating plug inhibits receptivity. there has been some work looking at the role of prostaglandins (found in semen and possibly mating plugs) in inhibiting female receptivity.

thanks,

matt

robertbruce Dec 02, 2004 02:06 AM

Dear Matt,

Thanks for your reply. I only infer ovulation from the behavior of the males in the room and mating receptivity of the females. It would be easy if there was only one male and one female in the room. When the male starts pacing the cage, I infer that the female has ovulated. They climb the front walls of the cage looking to get out, and they do this almost continuously. All of my males respond as if they were one. This is what makes me believe that they are detecting ovulation of one or more female by scent. When the males begin pacing in unison, I infer that there is at least one female who has ovulated. This has always been matched by receptivity. Whenever I have patiently rotated the females into the cages at these times, I will find at least one female who will mate, and I again infer ovulation in that female by this.

As far as reabsorbtion, I don't believe I have any way to answer this. I would imagine, in the absence of mating, that the females reabsorb their unfertilized eggs, and start anew the next season with a new set of eggs.

The females need no physical contact with the males in order to ovulate (in the way I infer ovulation). This does not preclude the possibility that the females might need the scent of a male pheromone in order to ovulate, but I kind of doubt this. I think that they are going to ovulate in the Fall/Winter whether there are males in the vicinity or not.

Thanks for the info on the female pheromone being released by the skin. I would speculate the same thing you did, that hormones in the mating plug turn off the production of female pheromones. This is mostly speculation. Males will sometimes try to copulate with females that are not receptive, within the 5 weeks after successful mating, but I think that they are detecting other receptive females in the room and acting on the one present in their cage. It logically makes no sense to me that females would attract males when they are not receptive to mating.

It is important to watch and be "in touch" with behaviors of Drymarchon that may be easily overlooked. The animals will tell us what is going on, if we look, and learn what to look for.

Robert Bruce.

DeanAlessandrini Dec 02, 2004 08:14 AM

Thanks for all your details Robert.

I have long said that I believe that the photo period is an extremely important factor in breeding eastern indigos. I believe the cool down is important as well, but the requirement could vary depending on the ancestry of the snakes. E. indigos from the northernmost part of their range in GA are exposed to nighttime lows in the 30’s, while they wait them out in the 55-60 degree tortoise burrows.

Indigos at one time extended all the way to Key West. Animals from this part of the range are not exposed to anywhere near the extreme nighttime lows, but…presumably, still managed to mate successfully.

So…could a Georgian indigo successfully reproduce without being exposed to the nighttime drops?
I don’t think we know that…and may never since we don’t know the origins of the captive snakes.

The one constant is the changes in the day / night cycle.
I have always very carefully controlled the photo cycles of my snakes, and as soon as the photo period starts reaching the “fall” period, I see semen deposits in the water bowls of the males.

Interestingly, 2 of my 3 males will breed right away (as soon as the photo period changes) and the third will not show any interest in breeding (even to the SAME females that the other males are interested in) until the nighttime drops are in the upper 50’s, low 60’s ! Maybe this boy is from a more northerly origin?

…just a few thoughts.

robertbruce Dec 02, 2004 06:05 PM

to use the term loosely.

Thanks for your kind words, Dean. Since I like the "super" red throats, I have sold off all my solid black indigos, and my colony are all red throats. For captive breeders though, this doesn't mean as much regarding locality of origin, as many folks, including yourself as I understand, cross the reds with the blacks. I know for a fact that some of my animals came from such crosses. They couldn't be described as pure south Florida origin, as a result. Since I don't own any solid black Easterns any longer, I can't make any conclusions regarding whether those animals may depend on temperature to trigger ovulation.

I have some opinions on this Black-Red crossing in Easterns and the implications regarding "repatriation" which I will post sometime in the future. You can guess what I will say, I am sure.

By the way, you probably remember my post of pictures of some beautiful high red Eastern hatchlings I had earlier this year. You responded with a post of an equally striking juvenile you produced. I would dearly love to obtain any offspring you have that are so profoundly red colored. Would you be willing to hold any animals you raise that are particularly superb, like the one you posted, and do a trade? I have a very diverse array of bloodlines, and I'm sure I could set you up with something "unrelated." Also, from whom did you get your parent animals? Take care,

Robert Bruce.

DeanAlessandrini Dec 02, 2004 09:57 PM

Rob,

I sent you an email,
but just a quick note...I once saw a super red wild indigo snake
in North Central Florda...Ocala area.

dryguy Dec 03, 2004 03:12 PM

chime in on my comments in the post a couple down..You'll know what I would like your comments on, I think..
-----
Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

dryguy Dec 03, 2004 07:57 PM

visit(read "play" when you have 10 or 12 clutches of hatchlings?!!!
-----
Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

robertbruce Dec 12, 2004 07:01 AM

Dear Carl,

You can come and help me get all them buzzards started feeding.

I'm expecting 14 clutches, possibly a 15th. Of course, if past history repeats itself, only a portion of those will be fertile. I am trying to think of a simple way to get all of them started. I plan to start raising button quail in the near future so that I have a good production of quail hatchlings. From my research, button quail are the smallest, and have the smallest hatchlings of all quail. My snakes have always liked poultry. I'm going to pitch my rat colonies and put quail in their cages instead. Rat pinkies are about the last thing a hatchling indigo wants, so it has been a pain for me getting them started in the past. Looking to fix this problem. I am not an Indigo owner who likes putting a lot of time into the project (if you remember, others have likened me to a "mass producer" of Easterns). I don't mind that rep. It could very likely be true.

Robert.

Site Tools