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too aggressive!

clove Jul 01, 2003 07:39 PM

My burm is about ten feet now and two years old. She is a great, aggressive feeder which I love! I never have to worry about her not taking a rabbitt. She is about 40 lbs and eats one 6 lb rabbitt every two weeks. They are either thawed or prekilled, depending on where i get them.

My question is, how do I calm her down? If I reach into the cage the wrong way, she will bite. If she is crawling across the carpet, and sees me move on the couch, she hunts me! She will come across the room and strike at anything that moves, even with NO prey smell around. I have a big hook that I have to use to get her out of the cage, and when I'm holding her she's fine.

Anything i can do besides feed her more? (which I don't want to do)

Replies (18)

JohnLokken Jul 02, 2003 07:53 AM

She doesn need to be fed more.

It sounds to me like you are trying to keep her at a certain size. And, that this is why she is acting like she is. I understand people wanting to keep certain animals at a manageable size. With some snakes it works.......With others.........It does not. In my experience, trying to control a burms feeding schedule too much will bring about "problems" like this.

What you are describing to me is an animal that "needs" more food. You have it on a "diet" of sorts. This "diet" keeps her "healthy" and functional.......But, within her little pea brain her body is telling her she needs more! You really have to understand how/what these animals are. They have a instinctual need for certain things. Like your female burm for example. Females, as they start becomming sexually mature have a "need" to put on size and weight so they will be able to breed successfully. Wheither you want to breed her or not. This will be her instinctual drive. This doesn't mean that you have to feed her and make her obese. Or, try to have the largest burm known to man/woman. But, it does mean that when you restrict basic needs from an animal.....There will be consecquences. (ie. stalking you, striking at you)

Let me give you one more experience that I have had over the years. I keep boas now. (I will have a burm again when my kids get bigger) But, back some time ago I had a couple of retics, and burm, and boas. I also keep my animals on a "maintance diet" of sorts. Most, of my boas get fed every two weeks. When I had the retic and the burm......I fed them every week. (They were babies) Out of the three types of animals.....The one who I feel this really caused problems with was the burm. Boas are easy and mellow. No agression at all with mine. The retics did REALLY well I felt. They grew at a nice slow rate and I really feel that the weekly feeding tamed them down a bit. (They were both mellow. But, I feel that when some people feed their retics every 3-4 days they are more use to feeding than handling.) As I said, the burm was the more aggressive with this. I had to actaully modify his feeding schedule because of it.

So, to sum it up. I really think that burms are just not the animals to be restricting too much in the diet area. If they are......Then, these are the problems that will arise.

Another thing that could have caused this problem is this. (And, I am just assuming here) Most new burm owners want to quickly get their animals large very fast. Once the animals has reached the owners "desired" size the owner will begin restricting the animals caloric intake. To me this type of "program" really spells disaster. The reason why is this. The burms body is use to an abundance of calories/energy to grow....grow....grow. Then, once it has reached it's "size". They are put on a diet the equals caloric depletion. (ie starvation) This will stress the animal to no end. It's thoughts will become/lean twords a feeling of survival. A need for food. This really is the wrong way to go about things.

Now, if the animal was raised slowly....This type of behavior might not be as noticable due to the fact that the animal is use to the calories/energy that it has been given in the past.

Forgive the typos and such. It is early and I haven't drank all my coffee.
John
-----
"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

JDP Jul 02, 2003 07:58 AM

A 6 lb rabbit every two weeks sounds like a good maintenance diet for a 10' 40 lb female that you dont intend on breeding. Im thinking that maybe your burm is just naturally a little more aggressive than most.

(I personally wouldnt care to have a burm like that, though.)

tango Jul 03, 2003 05:38 AM

JDP, I question whether a "maintenance diet," should be fed to a sub-adult Burmese. Mine take twice as much as this one is being fed and are lean and calmer. Their growth rate is not phenomenal either- it is slow and steady. It is a long way between heavy feeding and not feeding enough - I think maintenance diets should be reserved for adults.
-----
Marcia Pimentel
Tango River Reptiles
GiantFeeders

JDP Jul 03, 2003 09:00 AM

By maintenance diet, I mean enough food to keep the snake healthy and growing at a moderate rate. You have seen the pics I posted of my very healthy female green? She eats a 5-7lb rabbit every two weeks.
Maybe others have a different idea of what a maintenance diet is?

tango Jul 03, 2003 01:23 PM

Please don't take offense- your use of the term maintainance diet imo implies a Burmese that has reached adulthood and can be maintained. As for the diet itself, well, there are many different opinions on what is a suitable diet for a Burm and many Burms that throw some opinions out the window- but the term itself doesn't describe a diet that supports a growing Burmese which is what I was referring to. The original post was about a two year old female that is only ten feet long and the poster showed hesistancy to feed her anymore.

Slightly on a tangent- but related- I've noticed a large number of people feeding mice to baby Burmese and waiting five to six months to switch to rats and feeding rats until Burmese are two years old or longer. A few years ago, it was common to hear about power feeding and force feeding to get giants big fast. Seems like the current has gone the other direction but neither method is healthy. I don't know sometimes if we are talking about maintaining optimum health or maintaing a grip on the expense of an appropriate Burmese diet. That is not related to my comment above or to your post but it came to mind just now as I was writing and thought I'd get it out.
At any rate, I'm sorry that I haven't seen your photos. I don't often have the time to look at photos so I just read a few posts now and then. If the diet you are feeding is supporting your snake then it is a good diet for her. I will look forward to photos of you Burmese when I visit.
-----
Marcia Pimentel
Tango River Reptiles
GiantFeeders

JDP Jul 03, 2003 08:20 PM

"maintaining optimum health"

Now thats what I mean my maintenance diet....maintenance equating mainting health. Semantics really.

BTW, the pics are near the bottom of the page titled "Female Green Pics". You will see a 2.5 yr old, 11" female that has lived (and grown) well on a 5lb rabbit every two weeks for awhile.

BrianSmith Jul 02, 2003 03:18 PM

First, allow me to begin by saying that while it is true that this is certainly the behavior of a hungry snake,. and that she probably does want (not necessarily "need" more food, that this is most likely the result of conditioned behavior rather than a sudden decrease in the amount of her food. If you want to change this behavior you need to take the time to RE-condition her.

Now,.. did you raise her from a baby? If so I have a few questions for you. It's about how she has always been fed. If your response to this aggressive frontal attack is to feed her to appease her hunger, then you need to stop that. Never reward the behavior you don't like. If she gets food every other time she does this, then she will continue to do this. If this behavior NEVER results in getting food, then she will stop doing it in time. Instead of how you may be presently giving her her food, wait until you are holding her outside of her cage,... place a prekilled rabbit in her cage,. and then let her go back in and find it. But not every single time you hold her. This can also result in her making the connection between being held and being fed, and you don't want that either.

What I don't agree with here is where John said that when taken off heavy feeding schedules and placed suddenly on very light, or "maintainence" diet schedules, that the snakes can go into starvation mode and become very aggressive. In my experience this is not the case. Every single one of my female burmese makes this transition and I have never experienced any undue or additional aggression or higher than usual hunger levels. One would think this would be the case,. but it just isn't. All of my girls are powerfed or fed VERY heavily for the first 8 to 12 months of their lives. The moment I detect that their growth is slowing and they are becomming fat I take them off of this diet and place them on a fairly severe diet. I maintain this for a few months or until any noticeable excess fat has diminished and then I increase their food to that of a maintainence diet. Through all of this neither their attitude, disposition or behavior ever changes. In my experience it is the exact opposite. It is the individuals that have always been fed very little that have this hunger and sporadic, aggressive feeding response. Again, this is why I wanted to know if you raised her yourself. If so I would like to know if she's always been on a "slightly deprived" diet. These diets seem to lead to this behavior of a more "oportunistic feeder" looking for possible food in everything that moves.

Before I post this I would also like to acknowledge the fact that there is never a 100% flawless "constant" and while 25 out of 25 burmese (or any snake species) may be a certain way for one person or group of people, that there are always going to be exceptions to every rule. So what I posted here about my burmese and my experiences may not apply to your burmese, or other people's burmese that read this. Your snake may be that 1 in 100 snake that is the exception to the rule. She may NEVER respond to conditioning and her behavior may be ingrained in her response mechanism. But my guess is that she won't likely be any different. So I hope this all works for you and that in a month or two you have a more mellow snake. Good luck.

>>She does need to be fed more.
>>
>>It sounds to me like you are trying to keep her at a certain size. And, that this is why she is acting like she is. I understand people wanting to keep certain animals at a manageable size. With some snakes it works.......With others.........It does not. In my experience, trying to control a burms feeding schedule too much will bring about "problems" like this.
>>
>>What you are describing to me is an animal that "needs" more food. You have it on a "diet" of sorts. This "diet" keeps her "healthy" and functional.......But, within her little pea brain her body is telling her she needs more! You really have to understand how/what these animals are. They have a instinctual need for certain things. Like your female burm for example. Females, as they start becomming sexually mature have a "need" to put on size and weight so they will be able to breed successfully. Wheither you want to breed her or not. This will be her instinctual drive. This doesn't mean that you have to feed her and make her obese. Or, try to have the largest burm known to man/woman. But, it does mean that when you restrict basic needs from an animal.....There will be consecquences. (ie. stalking you, striking at you)
>>
>>Let me give you one more experience that I have had over the years. I keep boas now. (I will have a burm again when my kids get bigger) But, back some time ago I had a couple of retics, and burm, and boas. I also keep my animals on a "maintance diet" of sorts. Most, of my boas get fed every two weeks. When I had the retic and the burm......I fed them every week. (They were babies) Out of the three types of animals.....The one who I feel this really caused problems with was the burm. Boas are easy and mellow. No agression at all with mine. The retics did REALLY well I felt. They grew at a nice slow rate and I really feel that the weekly feeding tamed them down a bit. (They were both mellow. But, I feel that when some people feed their retics every 3-4 days they are more use to feeding than handling.) As I said, the burm was the more aggressive with this. I had to actaully modify his feeding schedule because of it.
>>
>>So, to sum it up. I really think that burms are just not the animals to be restricting too much in the diet area. If they are......Then, these are the problems that will arise.
>>
>>Another thing that could have caused this problem is this. (And, I am just assuming here) Most new burm owners want to quickly get their animals large very fast. Once the animals has reached the owners "desired" size the owner will begin restricting the animals caloric intake. To me this type of "program" really spells disaster. The reason why is this. The burms body is use to an abundance of calories/energy to grow....grow....grow. Then, once it has reached it's "size". They are put on a diet the equals caloric depletion. (ie starvation) This will stress the animal to no end. It's thoughts will become/lean twords a feeling of survival. A need for food. This really is the wrong way to go about things.
>>
>>Now, if the animal was raised slowly....This type of behavior might not be as noticable due to the fact that the animal is use to the calories/energy that it has been given in the past.
>>
>>Forgive the typos and such. It is early and I haven't drank all my coffee.
>>John
>>-----
>>"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

clove Jul 03, 2003 01:36 PM

Well, I was guessing at the weight of the rabbitts, but after all these replies I weighed an average sized one and it was 9lbs. I would not want to feed her more than nine pounds of rabbitts at a time. Like I said, she is ten feet in two years, I am certainly not trying to limit her growth. I know better than that. I just don't want a fat snake.

Someone else said I shouldn't feed her everytime she gets cranky. Well, she is always like that first of all and second of all the gets fed every other Saturday, consistently. She has a huge cage where the whole front opens. If I tried to feed her through the front she would eat my face. So i built a feed door in the rear of the cage and that is where i drop in her prekilled rabbitts.

The same day I posted this first thread, she came across the floor as usual when I was laying on the couch, and struck at me! I moved my arm in time and her whole face latched onto the couch! She was stuck and I was so mad at her for trying to bite me again, but I had to patiently removed her teeth one by one from the fabric. She left a couple behind.

She's like a dang pitbull. Maybe if she doesn't calm down I'm going to ave to put her down and start over with a calmer baby. I don't know.

1snakeman Jul 03, 2003 02:03 PM

My albino green was the same way but it only took two weeks to fully tame her, she still hisses but she is a nice snake. If you do decied to put her down I will either take her and try to tame her for you or i will bye her off of you. I have tamed the worst of snakes for some of my local pet stores. let me know if you want my help.

BrianSmith Jul 03, 2003 03:16 PM

,... Ok,.. I have to try to keep my post calm just in case that is not what you meant by "put her down",.... because this upsets me greatly. If you DID mean that you would have her killed just because you can't deal with her then I am really quite pissed. Sure, by law you own her and maybe technically you can do what you want with her,. but there are other options. You can adopt her out to another herper that doesn't care if a snake is aggressive. I know they exist because I am one. If you can't find anyone, I will take her and pay full shipping. Do anything else, but don't have her killed.

If you didn't mean this then please accept my apologies and ignore this post. Thank you.

>>
>>She's like a dang pitbull. Maybe if she doesn't calm down I'm going to ave to put her down and start over with a calmer baby. I don't know.
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

clove Jul 03, 2003 05:51 PM

well yeah of course thats what I meant by put her down!

I mean that would only be a last resort of course, but if she gets any bigger and doesn't calm down I would not have any options. I would not be prepared to put her off on someone else who thinks they can handle her either. There is too much liability involved.

Gosh I know some of you guys worship these animals and would do anything for them, but not all keepers are like that. She is nothing like a dog to me. I would not feel too bad about getting a beautiful skin out of a snake that wants to eat me everytime I take it out!

I know plenty of people who have nice tame burms, maybe I could start over and get one like that.

-cLove

1snakeman Jul 03, 2003 06:58 PM

I will take her I have tamed alot of snakes that were labeled as snakes that will bite you at any given chance. if you want i will trade you my female burmese for yours. I realy dont beleave that you should kill a snake because it is not tamed. I got my albino green in a trade for a redtail because the person said it was too agressive, but now she is dog tame.

RobertPreston Jul 02, 2003 09:20 AM

I agree with the poster that stated that the snake needs to be fed more. Common sense should dictate that when an animal is acting that hungry, feed it. You can overfeed a burm of course, but one that is hungry enough to stalk its owner is very hungry indeed!

I have a male burm about the same size as yours (he's a little bit heavier, but about the same length), and he gets 1-2 rabbits every two weeks. But these are big rabbits. If they are in the 10 pound range, he gets one. Smaller than that and he gets 2. A snake that stalks you in feeding mode when he's out of the cage is a very dangerous animal, and could really cause some problems in the future.

I would definitely try to feed the snake more, and make sure you handle it frequently. But when you handle him, make sure you are very careful and always have someone around if the unthinkable happens. I would think that with more food and lots of handling, the snake will calm down. At least I would hope so.

RP

JohnLokken Jul 03, 2003 07:56 PM

These animals are not throw away items. Sell it, give it away, whatever.......But, to destroy it just because it isn't tame. That really is lazy of you. I really understand not wanting to have pissy large boid. It is not what you expected or wanted. That is TOTALLY understandable. No one wants that. But, there really could be reasons why she is acting like this. You may be doing things wrong. I don't know. It might not only be the animals fault that it doesn't trust you......Or act aggressive twords you.
Give it up for adoption. There has to be someone in your area that does that.
Here is a link. Maybe you can find/talk to someone about it.
John
http://www.anapsid.org/societies/index.html
Adoptions link

-----
"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

ox Jul 03, 2003 11:50 PM

I see alot of people on these post saying maybe she is not tame enough
Burmese Pyhtons will never be tame they are not cats or dogs I think his problem is he doesn't feed her enough and probably doesn't handle her enough with the fear that she might bite her.

1snakeman Jul 03, 2003 11:57 PM

a

meretseger Jul 04, 2003 04:39 AM

Yeah... give the snake away and get a pet rock. Then no one cares if you beat it with a shovel because you cut your hand on it.

make_urself Jul 04, 2003 07:36 PM

well put

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