Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recently made a difficult trade. I traded my 3 very best red dragons plus 150.00 for a het for leucistic female and a male leucistic. The gentleman then contacted me back to tell me that he made a mistake and it was a female not a male and even though it is in my favor he has offered to refund the 150.00 bucks (which I agreed to wait until this Monday for refund) He also mentioned that the leucistic female was all white except for a light yellow tint on the back of her neck. The pictures sent to me weren't good enough for me to check her nails out, but the man talks very highly about his company and upholding his reputation. Now, I've never owned a leucistic animal and this is the whitest dragon I have owned or seen, but everywhere I go I continue to hear leucistics will always have clear nails. Now, this dragon has light colored nails, but they have a the little dark strip going down the center. He doesn't want his reputation to be ruined and is willing to trade back if I am not satisfied, but I want everyones honest opinon in regards to this trade and this specific dragon being a true leucistic. Her are the pictures posted again. Also, if you feel like this is not a leucistic do you think if paired with a het it will produce leucistic offspring? If paired with a leucistic will all the offspring be leucistic? Please help me out so that I can develop an good opinon about this deal. Thanks,
Jeff

Here is another picture

Here is another picture.....please give me the knowledge or questions I need to ask him about this dragon to get to the bottom of this. Thanks guys!
Jeff

Well we all live and learn. Sorry fellow that is not a leucistic. The reason I say this is because it does not appear to have clear nails. Keep in mind that a marketed Leucistic has two defining genetic traits. The first is clear nails and the second is hypomelanism. IMO Leucistics are selectively bred hypopastels. The are selectively bred to reduce the pastel colors that many hypopastels have. There are also people selling Leucistics that have color but as far as marketed Leucistics go they should have very little to no color. I have attached a pic of my Snow hypopastel that is genetically speaking exactly the same as a Leucistic but from a marketing point of view she is not because she did not lose her pastel colors completely until 5-6 months of age.

Leucistics should look like this shortly after hatching. You can see the clear nails and the lack of any dark pigment these are your genetic markers of a Snow Hypopastel and a marketed Leucistic is supposed to be white from day one but remember there is no genetic difference just selective breeding.
Good Luck,
Randy
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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

A treu leucistic has 3 kind of traits, hypomelanism, the clear nails trait (probably linked to the hypomelanism), and also the hypoxantic trait.
A treu leucistic is pure white and can't produce dark pigments and yellow, red or combi=orange colorpigments.
If they have a bit of color, they are hypomelanistic and have little color deu to selective breeding, this is almost the same fenotypo but a different genotype as what leucistics have.
Same thing with the hyposnow dragons that we see on the market, they have a reduced amound of dark pigment and dark nails, are not treu hypomelanistic, same thing with teh geno- and fenotye

Leucistic is often a misplaced name, 99% marketed as leucistic is in fact Hypomelanistic.
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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

Why the hell would you name a Hypomelanistic a Leucistic?????

Save the name for when dragons pop up that really have those traits!
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He started it lol. BTW, I just checked my babies in the other room from a het x het breeding and yes (thank god) the ones I figured were "leucistic" have clear nails. I've also heard them refered to as hyper-irridisphoric (sp? probably wrong lol) which I think is a more appropriate term but wouldn't sell as well.

Sean
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Heart Mountain Herps

If they have clear nails en have bit of color, IMO hypomalnistic hyperirridic would be the right genetic name for them.
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So, let me ask this then, if you guys were me would you feel mislead? Would you trade the following for the Dragon you saw in the previous posts:

1.1 Cawley red 5.5 months and 3 months
0.1 Chris Allen red 4 months

I'm including a picture of the older pair of the 3 dragons. And he also threw in an 8 month old germain giant het for lec.

Last question....if I sold her, which I am not, could it bring anywhere close to the 1000.00 price tag that I see on most sub-adult leucistic dragons?

I appreciate your feedback guys,
Jeff

that you would have trouble selling that dragon for $100-$200. She's nice but nothing more than a light colored normal dragon. Now when I say a light normal she has obviously been bred for a lighter color and I would agree with anyone who called her a snow. If she were a "hypo" snow, she would have clear nails making her worth more money. (Nowhere near $1000) The dragons you traded for her were far more desirable than what you got in return. I sold two clutches of dragons this season just like what you got and they sold between $60-$100. If it were me I would request him to undo the trade or you take it to the BOI and let everyone know what the story is behind the situation. Hopefully you have emails saved somewhere communicating what he told you concerning this dragon. By doing this you let the reptile trade know what his business practices are and if he wants to keep a good name he will fix the problem. In my opinion you definately were wildly misled.
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.

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Not only is that not a true leucistic or even a leucistic by bearded dragon standards it isn't even a hypo. It is a nice looking light colored dragon that appears to be what is commonly referred to as a non-hypo snow. You do have the option of taking this to the BOI (Board of Inquiry) to get it taken care of (hopefully) if he chooses not to fix the problem for you. Good luck but don't sit idle with this.
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.

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So, if this guy has been in the business for 19 years, would it be safe to say that this should have been explained to me before I traded 3 nice red dragons for a light colored dragon?

Jeff

Unfortunately I would have to agree with everyone else and say you were taken. Those were pretty nice dragons you traded for and I don't think you got a fair trade. She is not a luecistic. My other general question is if luecistics are line bred how do they breed hets that in turn make luecistics? Would snows or hypo's do this also. I am not questioning anyone just wanting some more general genetic answeres?

Leucistics (if there ar any) can be bred the same way as hypo's:
Example for treu hypo:

hypo x normal = 100% het hypo
hypo x hypo = 100% hypo
het hypo x hypo = 50 hypo, 50% het hypo
het hypo x het hypo = 25% hypo, 66% poss. het
het hypo x normal = 100% normal

The snow, is in my opinion a reduced dark pigment en color pigment due to selective breeding.
If you breed a snow to an normal you should get a clutch with a colorvariation from light to dark.

Hyposnows, can be bred the same way as stated above, if they are treu hypo's.
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In your post you say "The gentleman then contacted me back to tell me that he made a mistake and it was a female not a male and even though it is in my favor"

Having a female instead of a male would NOT be in your favor. See, when new morphs (of any kind, in any species) turn up, males carrying the trait are ALWAY MORE VALUABLE than females. Females are limited in the number of offspring they can produce much more than a male. You can breed the luecistic male to any number of females.

Just something to think about,
Paul

I just want to follow up with this post by saying that the party I traded with talks very highly about doing the right thing. I am going to hold him to his word and hope the desired outcome is successful and both of us do our best to "do the right thing". Also, I feel that after discussion and confirmation that it is a het for leucistic. I believe that if I understand correctly it was aquired in a show from some offspring that some were leucisitc and some had yellow tones. I will follow up with the end result of this issue just as soon as we decide what is fair for both of us.

Jeff

Thank you all for your imput, advice, and concern.

Honestly the dragon you got sounds just like one of the snow dragons I was trying to aquire from him back in September. He said all of his snow dragon had a yellow tint to them. You can look at your last thread about this subject and I see said the same thing before you mentioned it.

Go to his website and look at the snows he had advertised. I think he has a picture of a true Leucistic on his site as a "future breeder". Take a look and tell me what you think. Your dragon looks nothing like that Leucistic it looks more like his snows.

After conducting business with Bruce of Sunshine Dragons, I don't think he is a honest individual.

Khandof

I too would not be confidant in it's genetics. He obviously didn't breed it and tried to sell it as leucistic. I would not put any hopes in its ability to produce leucistic offspring.
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.

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Well,
I was curious and checked out the website, and the future breeder he has as leucistic, just looking at the picture, it has alot of color on it to be leucistic.

Man, Jeff..... That is a hypo/snow dragon.......... A leucistic dragon will have clear nails... NO BLACK........ I have no idea if it would produce leucistic offspring or not but would be very hesitant in thinking that it would as you've already been lied to about it being leucistic. It will NOT produce 100% leucistics for sure. I would trade back and go with someone else if I were you. I also contacted this guy about a pair of dragons that were supposed to be "leucistic" and when I started asking questions he wasn't ready for they were all of a sudden "sold"...... He was very inteerested in saleing to me though untill I started asking key questions. Hope you can resolve this issue and get your reds back! Sorry for this happening to you.

Later,
Robert
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

The dark nail hypo/snow aren't hypomelanistic!!!!!!!
IMO they shouldn't even carry the name hypo, more something like hyperirridic.
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and you are definately entitled to your opinion as i am mine...... I just don't see how you can say that there is no form of hypomelanism working here at all. All the characteristics thios trait displays are coincidal with dermal melanophore disfunction..... I guess we must agree to disagree on this issue my friend!

Later,
Robert
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson