Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a 7-8 month old Eastern that for the first 4-5 months had no proplem eating pinkies. Then, just two weeks ago he got this wild hair up his buttock and won't touch them. I have not changed a thing even down to where I purchase the food.

I did talk to a local Pet Shop and they told me to raise the temp in the tank to 80-85 degrees (from 73-75) to see if that helps.

Matco (name of my bud) is very active, has very clear eyes, and shows no sign of shedding.

I've placed an old waterbed heater under his living space and will watch the temp for a couple hours...

If you can add anything would be great!

Hey Apache,

I sent you a response directly but i also wanted to post my response in the forum. Let me know if you got my email.

But for others who are having the same problem, I suggested that the even though he raised the cage temp to 80-85, just make sure that the cage also has a cool side. I put in some volunteer time at a zoo and one of the snakes I take care of is an easten indigo milksnake ( i think that's what Apache has ). But all milksnakes have similar requirements when it comes to prey and environment... and having a warm and cool spots separately in a cage is necessary (unless the snake is in brumation) for the snake to regulate its own body temperature.

Also, another method that works well is kinda messy. Get a pre-killed prey and thaw it completely if it's frozen. Then after thawing, dip it into warm (not hot) water for a couple of minutes. Then take it out and soak excess water using paper towel. After that comes the yucky part. Pierce a small hole through the skull, small enough for a some little amount of stuff to come out (i.e. blood). The smell of brain will trigger a hunger response from the snake and will likely go for it. I've read about it before and saw a friend of mine tried this method and it worked. See if it does for your guys having problems with snakes not eating.

Good luck !
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RAY

Hmm... you must mean either an eastern indigo or an eastern milksnake. There's no such thing as an indigo milksnake... OR IS THERE???

Nate

Hey Nate,

I appreciate your response to my thread. However, I did not say "indigo milksnake". I stated in my posting that at the zoo, I take care of an "eastern indigo milksnake" (same as the pic you posted). I also mentioned to Apache that I assumed Apache's milksnake may be the one I take care of at the zoo but if not, i clarified that milksnakes have "similar requirements in prey and environment".

There is however a snake called "indigo snake" from Texas. Here's a link if you are curious about a "Texas Indigo Snake":

http://www.rw.ttu.edu/sp_accounts/Indigo Snake/Food.htm

Peace,
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RAY

There is still no such thing as an Eastern indigo milksnake. That is what Nate was saying. There is an Eastern Indigo snake (and there are Texas indigos as well), and there are Eastern milksnakes.

Good advice to the original question anyway.

Whether it is a typo of a phrase "eastern indigo milksnake" that was meant as "eastern indigo snake", that was not the ORIGINAL subject matter being asked by the original person asking advice on a snake not eating. I do not understand why all of a sudden I am being corrected left and right when all i wanted to do was be a nice guy and spend some time giving some useful suggestions to a person asking for some advice... and that very original posted question was not whether there is a confusion about technical snake names but seeking advice or help in enticing a snake to feed.

Should a person trying to give advice to another person by posting some suggestions be extremely concerned that another reader would start nitpicking on technical words (which i may add is totally unrelated to the subject matter at hand)? I don't mind being corrected but I would appreciate emailing me directly (and not post on public forum) if you want to correct me, so that I can have the opportunity to post another message correcting myself.

I thought that this was a friendly forum and not a forum to try to possibly (even if there is no intent on your part) to embarass anyone.

Thanks and no pun intended. PEACE...

Best regards,
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RAY

Ray, I don't think anyone was trying to bust your chops. This is a friendly forum that is meant to give advice and chat. I think everyone knew what you meant by "eastern indigo milksnake". I figured you meant you took care of a Black Milk at the zoo. But it just makes it less confusing for everyone if the correct common name is used. I'm sure Nate and Mark meant no harm. You gave some good advice to Apache.

Scott Ballard

I was just trying to make sense of something in your post that seemed ambiguous, I wasn't trying to put you down or anything. If you hadn't mentioned that you volunteer at a zoo, I probably wouldn't have said anything at all. I wasn't necessarily implying a lack of knowledge on your part; I figured it was probably a typo, or maybe even the zoo had the animal mislabelled. When I went to the Boston Museum of Science last year, they had a Blanding's turtle labelled as a map turtle and vice versa. Those kinds of mistakes happen, even at places like museums and zoos (don't get me started on pet stores...), places where you'd hope that everyone had their facts straight. I was just kidding when I put up the picture of my black milk... I guess internet emoticons don't really express my sense of humor well. That's just the first thing I thought of when I saw the words "indigo" and "milksnake" together. It's really cool that you get to work with an eastern indigo, many people consider them to be the ultimate colubrid. I wish I could have one, unfortunately it's illegal in my state! You should check out the Drymarchon forum, there have actually been some interesting things going on with indigo snake taxonomy lately. Good advice on the orginal post, BTW.

Nate

I'm cool... You're right about the concept of "internet emoticons". It's difficult to know what emotions are being felt while writing down a post or opinion... and misconstruing and maybe offending someone is always a possibilty... but thanks for your explanation.

Have a good one.
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RAY

I'm glad to see you all getting things worked out....

I took Ray's advice and raised the tank temp to 82 degrees. I split the pinkies head and put it in the tank. I woke this morning all excited that he had ate it only to find it moved to a different part of the tank..........GRRRR...

However, it's more interest in feeding than the past two weeks. I'll try again in a couple days.

Man I love the Black milks! Of course it's not an Indigo, but you have to admire that beautiful blue/black coloration and the muscular neck and powerful heavy body of these colubrids. When I feed some of mine it's slightly like the descriptions the "DRY" guys often talk about. While my blacks don't pick up and smash the f/t rodents to the ground just like an Indigo, they definitely "celebrate" their "kill" by dragging it around the cage with some letting go of it again and then grabbing it again and dragging it around sort of like a cat playing with a mouse. Unlike most other Kings and Milks I've kept over the years. I can't tell you they "enjoy" it but it sometimes appears that way. They are definitely not your typical milksnake! And in the confines of a modest size cage they rule their minature eco-system in a sort of very scaled down Indigo way. Which is a nice thing for those of us who can't keep Eastern Indigos and with the easier clean up we have more time for other resposibilities or... to keep more snakes if you want! Later..

ps. Nate- Sonny and Cher are looking great..

Like Nate, I wasn't going to reply about the name, but when you said you worked at a zoo, I thought it was important for you to know of the error and see about correcting it (for the sake of you, the zoo and all those impressionable kids that look at snakes at the zoo.)

No offense intended at all, and it was not a personal attack.

Ray,

I think I might have to try this method of braining a pinky to get my Pueblan to eat.

Could you describe exactly where to pierce and how you do it? (i.e., with a pin, knife, other?...).

Thanks,
- Mark

>>Hey Apache,
>>
>>I sent you a response directly but i also wanted to post my response in the forum. Let me know if you got my email.
>>
>>But for others who are having the same problem, I suggested that the even though he raised the cage temp to 80-85, just make sure that the cage also has a cool side. I put in some volunteer time at a zoo and one of the snakes I take care of is an easten indigo milksnake ( i think that's what Apache has ). But all milksnakes have similar requirements when it comes to prey and environment... and having a warm and cool spots separately in a cage is necessary (unless the snake is in brumation) for the snake to regulate its own body temperature.
>>
>>Also, another method that works well is kinda messy. Get a pre-killed prey and thaw it completely if it's frozen. Then after thawing, dip it into warm (not hot) water for a couple of minutes. Then take it out and soak excess water using paper towel. After that comes the yucky part. Pierce a small hole through the skull, small enough for a some little amount of stuff to come out (i.e. blood). The smell of brain will trigger a hunger response from the snake and will likely go for it. I've read about it before and saw a friend of mine tried this method and it worked. See if it does for your guys having problems with snakes not eating.
>>
>>Good luck !
>>-----
>>RAY

Hey Mark,

The advice I initially gave works well if the snake has been eating F/T (frozen then thawed) mice before, and then suddenly stopped eating. Apache's snake is already seven months old and is a yearling already... so using the method I described before is really using a prey size somewhere in between a hopper and an adult mouse.

Since you mentioned that you were gonna use a pinky for your pueblan snake, I assume then that your snake is just a hatchling. If so, in my experince as a breeder of honduran milksnakes, the hatchlings will usually eat a live newborn pinky or 2-day old pinky. The movement of the pinky and its body heat should be enough to trigger hunger after a week or so of its very first shedding. However, I also discovered that sometimes, hatchings are afraid of movements, especially if the pinky is crawling towards them head-on. Two of my hatchlings this years had that fear, and when I presented them with fully thawed pinky, they pounded on it. Sometimes after thawing, you need to dip the thawed prey in warm water for a few minutes for the snake to sense some body heat from the prey. Another thing is after dipping it from warm water, take a paper towel and wipe off water. I noticed that hatchlings shy away easily from wet prey (maybe the feel of liquid discourages them from eating).

So all the above suggestion is under my assumption that you have a pueblan hatchling and it just finished its first shedding or has not eaten before?

Hope this helps.
-----
RAY

Ray,

Thanks for the info. Just to note, my pueblan has already shed once for me, and has eaten twice. What I gave him each time was a pink mouse (F/T). I have since tried to feed him several times to no avail. Nothing has changed as far as I can tell. I have even tried the deli cup method.

Next time I try to feed him I'll be sure to dry off the pink mouse before I offer it to him. Hopefully that will work.

If you know of any other tricks that might work please let me know.

Thanks very much,
- Mark

>>Hey Mark,
>>
>>The advice I initially gave works well if the snake has been eating F/T (frozen then thawed) mice before, and then suddenly stopped eating. Apache's snake is already seven months old and is a yearling already... so using the method I described before is really using a prey size somewhere in between a hopper and an adult mouse.
>>
>>Since you mentioned that you were gonna use a pinky for your pueblan snake, I assume then that your snake is just a hatchling. If so, in my experince as a breeder of honduran milksnakes, the hatchlings will usually eat a live newborn pinky or 2-day old pinky. The movement of the pinky and its body heat should be enough to trigger hunger after a week or so of its very first shedding. However, I also discovered that sometimes, hatchings are afraid of movements, especially if the pinky is crawling towards them head-on. Two of my hatchlings this years had that fear, and when I presented them with fully thawed pinky, they pounded on it. Sometimes after thawing, you need to dip the thawed prey in warm water for a few minutes for the snake to sense some body heat from the prey. Another thing is after dipping it from warm water, take a paper towel and wipe off water. I noticed that hatchlings shy away easily from wet prey (maybe the feel of liquid discourages them from eating).
>>
>>So all the above suggestion is under my assumption that you have a pueblan hatchling and it just finished its first shedding or has not eaten before?
>>
>>Hope this helps.
>>-----
>>RAY

Greetings,
I am a relitive newbie and have a question on how to thaw and feed the pinkie. I have been taking them frozen and dropping in a glass of HOT tap water. After 10 min I take them out and blot with a paper towel. My corns and milks eats them like pigs. However my greyband king has completely stopped (after shedding and feeding twice on f/t pinkie) so maybe I need to try the braining method?

I would appreciate knowing the proper f/t technique for sure.

Best regards,
Doug

I would get an undertank heating pad and do not use lights as a heat source. You can use the lights for visual (asthetics) but not as a heating element. The pad will also allow the snake to thermoregulate to its desired temperature.

This is also a common time of year for snakes to shut down due to winter brumation which is natural for them. If the higher temps (adding a heating pad) does not do the trick then place the snake in a cool area 50F-55F for a month and then slowly let it warm it up. If you do not do this the snake will eat up any reserves and can starve to death.

This is also a common time of year for snakes to shut down due to winter brumation which is natural for them. If the higher temps (adding a heating pad) does not do the trick then place the snake in a cool area 50F-55F for a month and then slowly let it warm it up. If you do not do this the snake will eat up any reserves and can starve to death.
------------------------------------------
Would it be possible to elaborate on this??

I also don't mean to ask a dumb question but what is "brumation"? I very new to snakes and the one I currently own was found at my place of employment. Had I not brought him home, someone that works there would have distroyed him. I really like him and want to do what I can to keep him (Matco) for a long time. He's one of the best pets I've ever owned. I love the idea of having a pet that makes no noise and has no smell - unlike some of the others I have... two cats, wife, two kids, and a dog...haha...

Just from Matco, I am planning on adding additional snakes in the near future. I saw a Candy Cane that was way kewl..

brumation's the reptile version of hibernation, with technical differences due to cold-blooded vs warm-blooded animal physiology.

in nature, snakes go dormant/inactive/brumate (the verb being brumate, the noun brumation) each winter. Temps decrease; daylight gets shorter (or they go underground where it's completely dark); they reduce feed or go off food completely. This enables them to survive inhospitable conditions--from occasional freezes in central florida to months of hard freeze in northern states where snakes are native. And it triggers hormonal responses necessary for reproduction--the production of sperm, ovulation in females.

In captivity, we do this by lowering their temps (even 60 is fine, imho). Reduce light--i adjust a timer til lights in the snake room are on ever shorter periods, til only half an hour or hour each day; some people throw a dark cover over cages & black them out completely. And we withhold food (they wouldn't digest properly at lower temps anyway, nor would they be inclined to eat when they're cool--nature has its ways of regulating things pretty well). OR some people keep babies warm throughout the winter (those that are feeding well) to get them additional growth. But the winter prior to breeding, they should be brumated.

Good luck! If you'll allow me, I'd like to suggest also that you spend some time with your milksnake and get the many details of management mastered, before you add additional animals with slightly different food & maintenance needs, etc. I think you'll feel better adding to a collection when you have that added confidence in their care.

And lastly, if you run across a small-enough lizard, that might tempt your milksnake to eat, too.

peace
terry

Thank you Terry ... that helps me a great deal.

I will take your advice about getting another as well. That and I would have to talk the wifie into it as well even though she likes the one we currently have.