Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know that hybrid crocodiles are not regulated and not under the control of the USFW or protected under the (ESA) Endangered Species Act.

I have been going through the motions with a women at the USFW Management Authority office, she insists that hybrids are proceted by the ESA if the animal is cross-bred with 1 or more animals that are endangered and listed on the ESA.

For example a Nile/Morelets hybrid Crocodile (C. niloticus x C. moreletii) ... she says that since this animal is crossed with a endandered species (the Morelet Croc) that this animal would be bound to US ESA Regulations, meaning the animal would be looked at as a Endangered Species and subject to the rules regarding interstate sales, etc ..

I know this is not correct (as im sure most of you know also), but I am so sick of arguing with this lady and it goes no were, I need to show her that I am correct, possibly produce something that she can read or something similar.

It even went as far in our argument that (she said) if the Hybrid was a crocodile x alligator then that would be ok and not subject to the ESA but 1 species of crocodile crossed with another species of crocodile would still be subject to the ESA if 1 of the crocodiles is Endangered.

It is terrible that these people who enforce the laws do not know the laws, I really need to prove that I am correct and that she is wrong, if not for my own reason but even just to prove her wrong in general

So any ifo or help that anyone can provide in this matter would be appreciated!!!!!!!!!!

Hybrids are only legal to cross state lines if one of the parents are appendix II animal and the other parent is appendix I.The example that you gave would be ok to cross state lines,but if both parents are appendix I than it is illegal to buy across state lines unless you have a USDI permit.I have some permits and I asked the same question to the senior biologist.This is what he told me.I still would call USFW and make sure,especially if you have permits.It's the law anyways.
Mike

So say a Siamese/Cuban (siamensis x rhombifer) both parents being Endangered and CITES 1 animals, this would make it so the USFW views this animals as Endangered or CITES 1

Were as a Nile/Morlet (niloticus x moreletti) would be ok and not viewed as endangered or CITES 1 because one of the animals is not endangered and has the CITES 2 status.

I dont know this doesnt exactly seem right as its a hybrid and not subject to protection because of that, and it aslo seem that if the USFW were going to protect hybrids they would give the higher Enadangered status to such animal if the hybrid arrived from 1 endangered species & 1 non-endangered species

I would like to see some pacific rules or regulation that USFW has in regards to hybrids

So if anyone has it, please let me know

Many years ago I purchased a hybrid Tiger (bengal/Siberian) I called USFW before I purchesed and they gave me the ok back then

And they said that a hybrid was any combination of 2 or more differant species or 2 or more sub-species that have been crossed and that hybrids are not regulated.

I dont see why it would matter if one species is endangered, if both species are endangered or whatever, because it is a hybrid a un-pure blooded animal, and any non-pure blooded animal makes no differance to the pure population

actually thinking about it, if this is correct then it would mean that even the Diamond Caimans cant be shipped across state lines since it is a hybrid Spectacled/Yacare.

Neither the Spectacled or yacare are Endangered but they are threatened and both species require the federal permit to be shipped across state lines, since there are no special rules allowing intstate sale like the specail rules that allow Nile Croc's and American Alligators to be sold in interstate commerce

Think about it, USFW is crazy

The diamond caiman are considered illegal to sell across state line due to the fact that the spectical caiman moved from appendix II status to appendix I.the reason behind this is because they look very similar to the broad snouted caiman,yacare,brown,apaporis caiman.I have read it on USFW website.It is in there provisions ,and rules.Beleve me I have asked about the diamond caiman,and USFW told me that was illegal to buy out of state.
Mike

I am getting some good info out of what you are saying, im not trying to knock but i would like to point out that the Common caiman (being both Spectacle & Brown) as well as the Yacare caiman are both CITES2 and have always been CITES2

The USFW had the yacare Caiman listed as Endangered by mistake and it took many many years for this to be fixed, when it was fixed the USFW listed the Yacare at Threatened and it added Specatle & brown caiman as TSA (threatened due to similarity of appearance) they made a special rule to cover these caimans but they made sure to exclude live animals from the specail rule.

They were trying to make sure they didnt do the same thing they did in regards to the Nile Crocodile's special rule which allowed for live animals to be imported as well as sold across state lines

The Black caiman is CITES1 except the Ecuador population which is CITES2

The Broad-Snout Caiman is CITES1 except the Argentine population which is CITES2

The 1 Common caiman sub-species or Rio-Apaporis Caiman is CITES1

All other Caiman species are CITES2

I'am just going by what the senior biologist told me.He said the rule was applied 2001.The yacare is appendix II due to the special 4d rule also the nile crocodile.You are right about the black caiman,but there is no annual quota.You are right about cites being a whole different from USFW.The only problem is USFW have there own laws appling to cites.
Mike

Yea exactly, USFW enforces CITES regulations but they really dont, they enforce as they see fit and then they have the ESA to say well even if CITES says its ok, the ESA says it isnt !!

The Common Caiman, Yacare caiman status change on the ESA was in 2000, Jun 04, 2000 I believe

There are populations of Black Caiman, Broad-Snout caiman thats are CITES 2 but USFW says you cant get them because of the ESA

There are even populations of Chinese Alligators, Siamese, Cubans, Tomistoma's and many other sepecies that CITES ruled as CITES2 but the USFW says you cant get them because of the ESA

Its BS, but the hybrid stuff is just ridiculus

i have owned sevral hybreds the only thing i know for sure is niles are cities 1 only two importations were cities 2 they were south africa and from madigascar in orgin.it is my opinion that all captive bred animals should be non regulated the owner should be able to do as he or she pleasas as long as the animals are well cared for ARCHIE

Yes some Nile populations are CITES1 but the main issue here is not its CITES status but the US ESA status (which are 2 differant things)

As far as CITES rules and regulations go all captive bred CITES1 animals are CITES2

The US ESA doesnt recognise this fact

The US ESA list all Nile poputaions as Threatened with a special rule thats allows them to be imported and sold in interstate commerce

"Crocodile King" e-mailed me asking about this.... We'll start with the Spectecled Caimen info.. Since USFW service and inspecting import or CITES inspectors are not trained well enough to differenciate between endangered Aporensis and Crocodilus (Spelling?) They have declared the Spectacled Caimen to be threatened due to SOA (similarity of appearence)They are not actually endangered or threatened. They are still appendix II and can be shipped across state lines but, not imported. You can however, import skins, body parts and products(Dead)crocodilians that are protected if they come from farms!!! GO FIGURE!! Next...If a species is a hybrid between two appendix I species they are considered appendix I and cannot be exported without proper CITES. They cannot be shipped over state lines without USDI permits. If they are an appendix I X appendix II then they are exempt. Hope that answers the question...