Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK PEOPLE!!! The thread about Jeff getting ripped oiff had WAY too many misleading and/or uninformed referances to hypomelanism.......

It's no wonder people can't keep it straight when half the people brededing them don't even know what they are talking about.

Marketed Leucistics were imported into the US by Kevin Dunne as Leusistic animals. They are in fact Hypomelanistic. This was proven when Rob and Vicki bred hypo pastels to marketed leusistics and produced 100% clearnailed offspring.

Hypo-Pastels popped up in Snadfire Dragon Ranches stock and were given that name by the owners. These dragons are alos hypomelanistic but unrelated to the line from Kevin Dunne.

I would say that the reason Kevins lines are so white is that they came from lines that were of normal coloration and Sandfires line came from colored lines wich is why they are more colorfull.

Genetically speaking Marketed leusistics ARE NOTHING LIKE treu leusistics because you can breed color into these bloodlines...... Leasistics are incapable of producing ANY COLOR WHATSOEVER and have black or blue eyes.

There have also been other dragons from normal colored lines pop up that were solid white with clear nails as well.... color was bred into them..... HYPOMELANISTIC......

And I know that some of you don't aqgree....... But Hypo/Snow bloodlines are a form of hypomelanism that effects the dermal layer of skin...... All of the charaqcteristics are coincidal to a defect in the dermal melanophores.....

a "nonhyposnow", "genetically speaking leusistic"... all of these staements are going to confuse people even worse than most already are...... I think that we should keep the names of each particular line like they are and quit making false staements about gene3tics when it is very obvious that some of you guys are as confused or even more so than people who are just coming into the hobby....... there is going to be some serious inbreeding and some unfixable confusion if we don't keep it simple. ( if simple is a proper term...LOL )

I'm sure I've pissed someone off now but that is not my intent..... Sorry if I've offended but dang guys come on......... BIG PICTURE.........

Later,
Robert
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

what do you call a predominately white dragon with dark nails? It's not a hypo. It's been selectively bred for reduced pigment but stoll produces black. What is the big deal about about classifying an animal like this as a snow and one with clear nails as a hypo snow? Let me also state that I feel too many people make names up for dragons or call their dragons something because they think they look like something they saw in a pic. Just curious as to what your thoughts are here because I too see this as a huge problem in the hobby.
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.

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The genetics behind all this fascinate me, even if they're confusing as hell. I'll be back to read more of this thread

forgot to include it.

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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.

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nice example of hypo/snow dragon.

If you would like a good read on this check out Reptile and Amphibian Variants by H. Bernard Bechtell.
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

That picture is exactly how "Lucy" looked tonight befor I shut the lights off. She is the spitting image of that dragon, although she has lighter, but not clear nails.

JEff

I predominately white dragon with dark nails is a hypo/snow........ This is what Kevin Dunne coined it as from the beginning. If you call a clearnailed white dragon a hypo snow I would think you had crossed hypo/snows with the clearnailed trait to produce whiter dragons. This will also confuse those who don't understand the differance.

White, dark nailed dragons are a form of hypomelanism but the genetic defect is only affecting the malnophores in the dermal layer of skin. Since the dermal melanophores aid in forming pattern, producing color that is why you get bearides that either lack color, are faded in appearance of color, become patternless, and have redcuced black on the surface. They can still produce malnin inthe epidermal melanophores which is why they can still get dark when it is time to warm up. Whether this trait is hereditary or a genetic defect is irrelavant really... it's still a disfunction of dermal melanophores.

Hypo pastels and marketed leusistics have epidermal merlanophore disfunction which is why they don't realy darken and why their beards in extreme instances can't get black.

Hypo/snows..... hypo-pastels.....marketed leucistics are completely different bloodlines unless you breed them together. Naming or "renaming" these traits is going to make it very easy for people to get ripped or just for some severe misunderstandings to occur.

Robert
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

......

What has you confused? If I can help I will.
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

I have a Dragon's Den Snow that I picked up from LLL Reptiles. I was under the impression she was a pure snow. She is getting lighter with each shed, but after read these threads I'm starting to question how "Pure" she is.

I wanted a "Pure" white dragon without paying a "Leucistic" price.

Khandof

Hypo/snows do get white... at least some of them. Pure snow just means that it was a hypo/snow X hypo/snow breeding. It has nothing to do with Marketed Leucistics at all.
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

Robert,

You are adding to the confuse while at the same time bemoaning it. Specifically, you are confusing people by spreading misinformation about hypo's and snows.

These are the facts:

1. Hypomelanistic (hypo's) dragons have the dark pigmentation reduced or nearly absent, with one of the characteristics being clear nails.

2. Pastel dragons are a line of hypo dragons, WITH CLEAR NAILS, developed by Robert Malloux.

3. Snow dragons are another line of hypo dragons, WITH CLEAR NAILS, established by Kevin Dunne.

4. Leucistic dragons were first produced by Kevin Dunne by breeding two hets together, he did not import leucistic dragons.

Here is a quote from Robert Mailloux regarding hypo's:
"These are a hypomelanistic form of the Red/Gold dragon. They are unique in that they can be recognized at the hatchling stage as lacking black pigment. They have clear claws and often have purplish markings where most bearded dragons have dark brown."

Also, read the discription of hypo/pastel/snows on page 116 of "The Bearded Dragon Manual"
Two additional sources are:
www.sandfiredragonranch.com
www.dragonsdenherp.com

One more time to clear up your confusion:
Snows have clear nails
Pastels have clear nails
hypo's have clear nails
There is no such thing as, in your words "predominately white dragon with dark nails is a hypo/snow"
Clear nails are a defining characteristic of hypo's.

Paul

Jesus, I'm confused and I've been doing this for a while lol. It's my understanding that the 'clear nail' trait resides on a separate allele than skin color and is independantly simple recessive. I think one of the problems we have as beardie people is that we allow anyone to name a dragon phase/morph anything instead of following well established scientific naming processes (hyper, hypo, axanthic, melanistic, irridisphoric, etc.). Snakes were so much easier to figure out lol. I think as a group we need to come up with a naming system and stick to it. It would probably piss a lot of people off at first but it would make this hobby so much more understandable and stop some of the constant arguments about what's what.

Sean
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Heart Mountain Herps

ok, but in this case The originators of the morphs are the ones who defined the morphs characteristics, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say "just anybody" is defining the morphs.
Paul

Yes but Leucistic characteristics have been known through other animals for a while. Kevin, whether intentional or not, misnamed these. They do not meet the requirements for a leucistic animal. Also, even Kevins animals do not meet some of the requirements I've seen flying around here. If you check his pics on his page the top one has yellow in its beard and a yellow eye patch. Now don't get me wrong, I've got 'leucistics' that I bought as that, bred as that, and when I'm ready I'll sell as that, it would be stupid of me not to.

Sean
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Heart Mountain Herps

Paul, I am by no means an expert on dragons but if you are saying that clear nails is a trait that snows, pastels, and hypos will always have why do I have a hypo male and female without clear nails? If so, your wrong. There is no way the dragon I got that was traded to me as leucistic is a lighter normal. It has to be hypo/snow or at least snow. We should just paint our dragons nails and not worry about the pigment! Lol
Jeff

Robert,
I really hope you are not referring to me in this line
I'm sure I've pissed someone off now but that is not my intent..... Sorry if I've offended but dang guys come on......... BIG PICTURE.........

Your post reiterates what I said when I explained the marketed leucistic issue. Hopefully this post will make everything easier for the novice and expert breeder alike:

Phenotypic(visible traits)
hypomelanism = no dark pigment or defective xantho,erythos
Clear nails = no dark pigment or def. xantho,erythos in nails
Black Blue eyes = no pigment or def. xantho,erythos in eyes

xantho = xanthophore (yellow pigment)
erythro = erythrophores (red/purple pigment)
guano & leuco = guanophores & leucophores(white pigment)

BDs skin is arranged in this way:
The chromatophores are layered upon one another in the outer portion of the dermis. A layer of xanthophores (yellow pigment cells) erythrophores (reddish-purple pigment cells) and other fat-soluble pigment cells lay just under the basal membrane of the epidermal layer. Under the xanthophores are several layers of iridiophores which produce iridescent colors in the range from blue to gold, as well as white (guanophores and leucophores).

The presence or absence, and density and distribution when present, of the melanocytes and chromatophores within each layer will determine the color of the reptile - not some breeder slapping an "albino" label on it. In some static-colored species, the stacks of chromatophores are absent.
-www.anapsid.org

These are the three traits that are pertinent to this issue. These traits account for the different morphs we are discussing.
This is a classification scheme that I believe:

Hypopastel = hypomelanistic & clear nails

Marketed Leucistic = hypomelanistic & clear nails

Leucistic = hypomelanistic (no color anywhere), clear nails, black or blue eyes (have not been produced in BDs yet)

Snow = multiple alleles or Codominant ??(maybe a
combination of several genes, but is definitely a result of selective breeding) Snow as it was origially coined was just a term to describe a light dragon and implies no genetic characteristic and the line that Kevin created has Dark nails.

It is my opinion from careful observations of hypomelanism and clear nails that they are two separate and distinct genetic traits that many times appear together. This could mean that these genes are on neighboring loci or have overlapping loci.

The marketed Leucistics came from a man named Mark LaShock(sp)
you can check that out with Kevin or Vicki & Rob. As far as I know Mark does not live in Europe. Just like as in the Snow term the breeder that originally began to market marketed Leucistics has made up the rules and not followed the genetics. The difference between a Hypopastel and a marketed Leucistic is that Leucistic are supposed to hatch white which is not a genetic trait because as Robert said color can be bred into the Leucistic line so that they hatch with color which is now just turned a marketed Leucistic into a Hypopastel. This is exactly what happened at the Dachius this year.

I do think what you mentioned is 99% true but there is a better way to approach this issue. I also thought that Sean's idea about coming up with a naming system would be beneficial to the whole community. Unfortunately that would take away some peoples ability to charge big ticket prices.

This is my take so take it for what it is but I would not offer an opinion if I had not thoroughly researched it. Consequently I am working with Leucistics, Hypopastels, and Translucents.

Here are some links that should enable newbies and not so newbies understand reptile genetics:
www.reptimania.co.uk/genetics.htm#het
www.anapsid.org/basicdermatology.html

-Randy
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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

Just one question, what would be a benifit of owning a markertable Leucistic or Hypopastel for breeding purposes. Also if a Marketable Leucistic and hypopastel are about the same thing than how come the Leucistic's are more money?
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2.1.4 Bearded Dragon (Ember,Sunshine,Misspiggy,Spyro,Inferno,Cinder,Peaches)
2.1 Leopard Geckos
(Patternless,Blizzard,Hypo Tangerine)
0.1 Bibron Geck
1 Austrailian Shepard (Griz)
3 Cats (Twilight,Hadies,Pietree)
1 Ferret (Nibbles)

The benefit basically is the fun the breeder has working with one of the few only recessive genes found in bearded dragons, and the benefit the customer has in owning a dragon a bit out of the ordinary for his/her pet or breeding projects. Some people love them, and some really could care less about hypomelanistic dragons and clear toe nails. Many people enjoy having the varied outcome when breeding, and some have hopes, and goals of producing something a bit out of the ordinary breeding in different color variations, and traits to their hypomelanistic dragons. I personally like the colors of the hypo pastels much more then the white leucistics. I just have a color preference. Hypo pastels have been around longer then leucistics, and this may have something to do with the difference in price, but I think when the leucistics were first sold the idea of having something new, and different caused the inflated prices. When the clear nailed pastels hit the market they to sold for $500 a piece. People at that time also understood less then today about the clear nails and the difference between a clear nailed dragon and one with dark nails.. Many people misnamed their dragons cause they looked similar in color to the hypomelanistic pastels that were selling for $500 a piece, but did not know the difference in the nails and it being hypomelanistic and recessive. These people called their dark nailed dragons pastels and sold them off for the going price of $150-$200 a dragon and like in any market this would drive down the prices fast. Leucistic were supposed to be different then the hypo pastels, and not just because pastels have some color and luecistics white, but it was believed there was another genetic mutations involved that made them white and not able to show other colors like the pastels. After breeding trials this was found to not be the case, and people started calling them marketed leucistics as they are not leucistic by definition.
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

LMAO! well...I have learned from reading all this that although I am very confused...I'm gonna buy whatever I think is "pretty" and leave all of this hypo/snow/leust/etc. to you guys! lol...sorry I probably shouldn't find humor in something I know you all take very seriously. Good luck and just know that people like me appreciate the effort you put into these little guys!

Marilee

I happened upon your website last night and WOW! Your dragons and babies look amazing! Great job! Nice job on the web design too!
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Stacey

Today my girlfriend was busting my chops on how unprofessional my web site was, and how it looks like the work of a 5th grader LMAO.. Of course she went to school for graphic arts and web design, but doesn't help me out any hehe. Thanks a lot though Stacey I appreciate iT! Now I can show her that everyone doesn't think the same way she does As for the dragons I love them to pieces. I have so many new pics of the babies growing up I'd love to share, but I'm having problems with my camera software I just had a wonderful time breeding Foster and Candy last season. It was such a joy raising up these babies, and watching my customers dragons as well grow into some fantastic looking dragons.
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

Well, you have done a fantastic job with all of them. Candy and Foster are amazing! I bet their babies are GORGEOUS! I can't wait until you get the new pictures up on your site.

Don't worry about your girlfriend, It is always hard when you have a professional in the family. You should hear my husband the electrician complain about my power strips and the amount of power I use on herps. But, does he hard wire new outlets for me? NO!
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Stacey

What I ment was what benifit do hypopastels contribute in the sence of offspring colour. I know a hypo dragon is supposed to lack black colouration, which in turn is supposed to help to produce brighter offspring, but what benifit to a breeder would a Hypopastel be?
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2.1.4 Bearded Dragon (Ember,Sunshine,Misspiggy,Spyro,Inferno,Cinder,Peaches)
2.1 Leopard Geckos
(Patternless,Blizzard,Hypo Tangerine)
0.1 Bibron Geck
1 Austrailian Shepard (Griz)
3 Cats (Twilight,Hadies,Pietree)
1 Ferret (Nibbles)

You pretty much have one of the main reasons why a hypo would be used and benefit the breeder, and that would be to reduce the black pigments in the offspring. Many breeders use it to brighten and lighten the offspring's color. A hypo pastel bred to a colored dragon would produce hets. Those hets if bred to another hypo or another het would produce some hypomelanistic offspring with the increased colors, and lack the black pigment from the outcrossing.
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

Marketed Leucistics were imported into the US by Kevin Dunne as Leusistic animals. They are in fact Hypomelanistic. This was proven when Rob and Vicki bred hypo pastels to marketed leusistics and produced 100% clearnailed offspring.

If that's really what they did then they didn't prove anything by doing only that breeding!!!!

Leucistics have the same hypomelanistic-trait but also must have the hypoxantic/axantic trait.
The hypomelanistics only have the hypomelaistic-trait, so a leu x hypo pairing would be 100% hypomelanistic but also all hets for hypoxantism/axantism.
The fenotype off the offspring would be "the same" as the hypomelanistics, but geneticaly speaking there also would be something else going on.(het for hypoxantism/axantism)
So this is only the first step.

The second step would be the only way that they could prove if the dragon was a treu leucistic.
That is by doing a het x het offspring breeding
((leucistic x parent1) X (leucistic x parent 2)), the leucistic being a parent of both of them.
If the dragon really was/is leucistic there has to be 25% pure white leucistic dragons in the clutch, if not, the dragon was/is a hypomelanistic.

correct me of im wrong here.

greetings from the netherlands
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