Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, We took in our Blue tongue about 1 year ago as a rescue with MBD causing a bowed out law, which stayed that way, as well as a toe shedding (?) problem causing missing toes. Well, Blue has been pretty sweet intil recently, as he is now attempting to bite and threatening with open mouth whenever I go near him. I'm thinking its a breeding season thing, but have not found any diffinitive info stating this as fact. So, I'm looking for some insight into this.

The toe problem is starting up again, and since he is already missing a few toes, and I already have saved a number of them from falling off, I'd really like to get to the bottom of this problem. He is in a 2ft X 4ft enclosure with a small second level, he has bath towels as a base substrate, a basking spot, a large water bowl, and 2 hide boxes with moistened coconut pulp (Bed a beast). He does not use the hide boxes as they are, so I'm contemplating a substrate change, but i haven't decided what to use yet.

Now, I have read that they don't need alot of humidity, and he does shed well at the moment, but what about these toes? They get cut off seemingly by stuck shed, lose their circulation, swell, and if not treated with baths and tripple antibiotic ointment they will fall off. I've been figuring this is a moisture problem, as in his first home (before I got him) he was on dry calcisand, and that's when his toes really got bad. The problem I have is that he really doesn't seem interested in the moist substrate, so short of filling the whole enclosure with it, if that's really the thing to do, I don't have alot of great answers aside from giving him alot more baths.

So, we've got grouchy bitiness, as well as a toe problem, and a bit of a drooling problem due to the jaw, but that's the least of my worries, so now I'm open to suggestions????

I should probably put forth that I'm a private rehabber and I work worth many species of reptiles, so I am by no means a novice at this game, just having some trouble with this little guy!

Thank you all in advance!

Freight

I'm not sure they should be kept on a moist substrate? On the day that my bluey sheds I give her until the evening before I give her a short soak and then remove any stuck shed. Shed should not be left on the toes/tail for the reason you stated. I'd suggest you also post your message on: http://www.bluetongueskinks.net/blue.htm
for more help/advice.

Good luck!
-----
Check Out My Albums

1.0 Ball Python "Aragorn"
1.0 Bredl's Carpet Python "Strider"
1.0 Kenyan Sand Boa "Gimli"
1.0 Saharan Sand Boa "Frodo"
0.1 Rough-Scale Sand Boa "Arwen"
1.0 San Felipe Rosy Boa "Legalos"
0.1 California Kingsnake "Gentoo"
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Indigo"
1.0 Snow Corn snake "Chile"
0.1 Okeetee Corn snake "Amazon"
1.0 Crested Gecko "Willow"
0.0.1 Irian Jaya BlueTongued Skink
0.1 Australian Cattle Dog/Pointer "Kira"

You should try:

1. Letting the skink soak in a tub with one inch of lukewarm water in it for about 10 minutes a day.

2. Try getting a shoebox and putting some paper towels soaked with water on the bottom. Then put the top on, and you have a small humidity box.

As for the taming, it takes some time and patience. Mine used to be very hissy and attempted to bite me, but with time she has significantly calmed down. Your best bet is to grab them from above around the front legs and then picking up the back end... they normally don't struggle once picked up.

Substrate I actually use newspaper because of my skinks messy feeding habits, but wood chips and repti carpet work equally well. Also, do you have any UVB lights in her cage?

Good luck
-----
Current Collection:
0.1 Antherystic elaphe guttata guttata - Corn Snake
1.0 Elaphe vulpina gloydi - Eastern Fox Snake
0.1 Leucistic elaphe obsoleta linheimeri - Texas Ratsnake
1.1 Morelia spilota cheyni - Jungle Carpet Python
0.1 Tiliqua scincoides intermedia - Northern Blue Tongue Skink

Humidity isnt really necessary, but a humid hide may help but if its stuck on the toes remove it yourself. You definitley shouldnt have him on sand, switch to aspen or carefresh. Agression can be fixed with daily handling, I tamed down a tanimbar( which are notorious for their agression) so anyting possible.

-----
0.0.1 Corucia (Bubba)
1.0 Indonesian Blue Tongue Skink (Don)
1.1 Irian Jaya Blue Tongue Skink(Sammy) & (Sausage Girl)
0.0.1 Tanimbar Island Blue Tongue Skink ( Spunky Sebastian)
0.0.1 Ornate Uro (Spike)
1.0.1 Green Tree Pythons ( Male=Floyd, Baby= Verdi)
0.1 Western Hognose (Piggy)
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortiose(Tank)
0.0.1 Sonoran Gopher snake ( Toro)
0.1 Albino Leo gecko (Sasha)

Humidity can be anywhere from 25 to 45 %

I prefer 25-35%.

There's a taming section on the bluetongueskinks.net caresheet!

I prefer to have a large bowl of water (big enough for them to get in). It helps with the humidity and they will soak when they are shedding . I never have any problems with Camille's or Elwood's toes.

Camille swimming.

-----
Stacey

Blue has a huge water bowl, as well as 2 humidity boxes, and his overall humidity is low, yet we still have a toe problem. As far as the aggressiveness is concerned it has only started very recenty, as he has never attacked me before unless he was receiving a medical treatment, and those ended quite some time ago.

Do they seem to prefer a specific substrate in their hide? I have Bed a beast in their now and he doesn't touch it, I've used cypress before, but he still preferred to be hidden under a towel, I have sphagnum, but I find it can grow mold easily so I only use it for specific animals that really benefit from it.

i'm starting to wonder if the recent re-occurrance of the toe problem is having an effect on his mood??? Its a tough one I know!

freight

Check out the caresheet at bluetongueskinks.net!

-----
0.0.1 Corucia (Bubba)
1.0 Indonesian Blue Tongue Skink (Don)
1.1 Irian Jaya Blue Tongue Skink(Sammy) & (Sausage Girl)
0.0.1 Tanimbar Island Blue Tongue Skink ( Spunky Sebastian)
0.0.1 Ornate Uro (Spike)
1.0.1 Green Tree Pythons ( Male=Floyd, Baby= Verdi)
0.1 Western Hognose (Piggy)
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortiose(Tank)
0.0.1 Sonoran Gopher snake ( Toro)
0.1 Albino Leo gecko (Sasha)

Just a quick question, but do you have any free-roaming pets or is his cage in a high traffic area?
-----
Current Collection:
0.1 Antherystic elaphe guttata guttata - Corn Snake
1.0 Elaphe vulpina gloydi - Eastern Fox Snake
0.1 Leucistic elaphe obsoleta linheimeri - Texas Ratsnake
1.1 Morelia spilota cheyni - Jungle Carpet Python
0.1 Tiliqua scincoides intermedia - Northern Blue Tongue Skink

As it turns out he has a slight respiratory infection. I've been noticing his nostrils to be a bit pinker than usual, and a look at the roof of his mouth revealed a bit of redness and irritation.

So, he's on an antibiotic, I've upped his baths and changed to a different substrate in his humidity boxes. Now we wait and see how things go from here. Fortunately only one of his toes is now aggrivated, and its totally salvageable, so in a week or 2 it should be back to normal!

I actually handled him for a bit today, and as long as he gets a back rub he's fine, put I have to watch the teeth when I go in to get him!

Freight

I have never yet had a problem with shedding with my BTS, and I use moist green moss in his hide box. The moisture is very important when they are shedding, also something they can rub against to remove the dead skin, like cork bark. For substrate I've been using Omni soil amendment (no fertilizers or chemicals), with cyprus mulch on top. He has done very well for the past few years with this type of substrate. For his winter sleeping box I am using CareFresh from Petsmart, but am not convinced this is the best, though he does like to bury himself in it! Just afraid it may be too dry.
Please note, I live in the desert so have to go the added distance to bring up the humidity!
Just my 2 cents worth!

First, drooling is an associated sign of Respiratory Infection, with toe loss that means compormised Immune System. Drooling is not normal nor should it be ignored. You have stated a history of toe loss with shed problems this tells that your setup is too dry. A water bowl does not replace a humidity area for shedding but provides a soaking area. Try an upside down catlitter pan with Sphangus Moss lightly misted daily for a humidity area availble to the BTS at all times. Substrate should consist of shredded Aspen Bedding two to three inches deep for burrowing which is a natural behavior. Sand, Calcuim granules, and CareFresh are too dry and can cause dehydration in some situations. Bed-a-Beast and Dirt can be breeding grounds for Bacteria & Fungi, even if checked everyday you wouldn't catch it all. While Bath towels may ease cleaning think of how often they are soiled/cleaned, and since they do not absorb all the Urates where else is waste material collecting? Check your Basking temps (90f - 105f) you can also put a flat stone or tile under the Basking light for belly heat. This will help raise body temps which is needed for Stressed, Sick & Injury skinks. Aggressive behavior is not always attributed to Breeding Seasons especially when toe loss, dry shed, and drooling are present. Sick animals respond this way, take him to the Vet! Sneezing is not always present in early respiratory or pneumonia.

The drooling is in response to the fact that he has a bowed jaw due to past MBD, it is not a result of illness! He has a basking slate and 2 humidity boxes, which i just switched to cypress bark. It is much easier to keep him clean with bath towels , as I change them immediately after he deficates, and I use this sytem as well with most of my snakes. The reason I use the towels with him is mostly the bowed jaw, as he would most certainly be getting aspen, dirt, cypress, etc. imbedded into the sides of his mouth if he was burrowing into these substrates. It happened before I got him, but its not happening while he's here.

Blue is a neglect case and was fed only mice for the first 2yrs of his life. He was kept way too dry, developed MBD, and has lost 4 toes due to impropper care. So, as a result of a rotten history he has some ongoing problems and has been setup specifically as a result of those problems. Now, since I have realized there is need for a few changes I have asked for assistance.

I appreciate the overwhelming response to my posts and have gathered a small arsenal of possible changes that blue may benefit from. His hidebox substrate and basking light wattage have been changes, I've been giving him more baths, and he's on an antibiotic. I've also been working on getting the night temps in his room up, so now it will be a couple of weeks to see how much difference the changes have made.

Thanx again!

freight

I disagree on the drooling being just a response to bowed jaw. Dry conditions do not cause MBD lack of Calcium does, but as you stated he was fed mice the first two years. Did you consider the past impact of two years of eating mice to be the cause of bowed jaw with MBS? Pinkie mice hold the highest Calcium while adult mice the least. Try ESU "Shed Ease" in bath this will lubricate scales and remove dry shed easily. This much less stressful than constant bathing. As with any wood chips there is always dust particle concern, Aspen (large shred) seems to have the least. Reptile carpets (indoor/outdoor carpet) is also effect but can cause the risk of ingested strands of thread. If you want total ease then use newpaper, cost effective and inexpensive.

I think you should go back and read my past posts again, as I never said dryness caused his MBD, that would be absurd! The MBD was a result of improper diet and lack of supplementation, and yes, not only did I diagnose it, but my vet confirmed it. As for the drooling, its really not that bad, and he ends up with a wet residue on his lower jaw, because it doesn't close properly, not because he's sick!

Also, I think your quite mistaken about the pinkie mice, as their bones have yet to develop, and thusly they would have LESS calcium available to the animal, and not more, as in a fully developed mouse with good bone density.

Anyway, I'm not looking to nit picky or anything, and I'm certainly not looking for an arguement, so i'm off to see how the changes go and if I think we're stuck again I'll let you all know!

Thank you!

Freight

Cartilage of pinkie mice holds more Calcuim than full bone growth of mice. In pinkies: Hyaline cartilage formed by Chondroblasts create future bones rich in Calcuim. Chondroblasts build the bones,and repairs them.
As mice live the cycle of Osteoclasts are bone-disovlving cells which through a mammals life break down bone material and release calcuim and hydroxapatite into and around the osteoid matrix, this signals the osteoblast to build new bone layers or repair bone. Maintenance of of heomeostasis of bone structure depends on balance of osteoclast & osteoblast cycles. Bone structures reach a precise density with age and then loss of mass with age. Mice have a short life span and this happens quicker. I have bred all three strains Harland Supermice for yrs with alot of research involved.
As for drooling, the previous post was not elaborated so I took it at face value. No I am not arguing with you. Was trying to help you with information. Hope your Skink fully recovers and you enjoy yrs of interaction.

That's really interesting!!! I feel like I just got an extra biology lesson to add to what i get in school, thanx!

Funny thing is 1 of my vets concurrs with the info I gave, but he is clearly mistaken. I'll be keeping a close watch on blue to make sure things clear up. he's on an oral antibiotic right now, but if i don't see improvement soon I'll switch to Baytril. I find that when other drugs don't work with lizards it Baytril to the rescue!

Thanks for all the info, and you clearly know more about bone density/calcium amounts than I do!

Freight

Just trying to help with information for your BTS recovery. Yes I agree fully with Baytril use. I have used it safely with many Lizard species that can have a delicate reaction to other medications. Hope Recovery goes well.